[OT] Tow rope with embedded wires

[Bob Blick]

The story I hear is that this rope was used to tow three gliders full of soldiers behind a DC-3 over France near the end of WW2. The gliders cut loose one at a time and had soft(crash) landings behind enemy lines. The rope has three insulated wires embedded in it that were used for communication between tow plane and gliders. A crazy wartime mission that probably wasn't very successful.

The wires are real strange. At first glance they look like conventional 16ga stranded power wire, but they are more like insulated coax with no center conductor, just filler inside the braid.

That's all I know. The dollar coin is used for scale, just to confuse everyone. Dollar coins aren't really used very much, except when given to me as change in my local parking garage :) The rope is about 18mm diameter.

Happy Friday, everybody!

Bob

[Van Horn, David]

Braided conductors probably so that they would stretch at least as much as the towline before breaking.
Can't really use radio between planes on a stealth mission.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of Bob Blick
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 3:09 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: [OT] Tow rope with embedded wires

The story I hear is that this rope was used to tow three gliders full of soldiers behind a DC-3 over France near the end of WW2. The gliders cut loose one at a time and had soft(crash) landings behind enemy lines. The rope has three insulated wires embedded in it that were used for communication between tow plane and gliders. A crazy wartime mission that probably wasn't very successful.

The wires are real strange. At first glance they look like conventional 16ga stranded power wire, but they are more like insulated coax with no center conductor, just filler inside the braid.

That's all I know. The dollar coin is used for scale, just to confuse everyone. Dollar coins aren't really used very much, except when given to me as change in my local parking garage :) The rope is about 18mm diameter.

Happy Friday, everybody!

Bob

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[John Gardner]

I wonder how many iterations it took to get it to work - If it did...

On 6/29/18, Van Horn, David <***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> Braided conductors probably so that they would stretch at least as much as
> the towline before breaking.
> Can't really use radio between planes on a stealth mission.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of Bob
> Blick
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 3:09 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: [OT] Tow rope with embedded wires
>
> The story I hear is that this rope was used to tow three gliders full of
> soldiers behind a DC-3 over France near the end of WW2. The gliders cut
> loose one at a time and had soft(crash) landings behind enemy lines. The
> rope has three insulated wires embedded in it that were used for
> communication between tow plane and gliders. A crazy wartime mission that
> probably wasn't very successful.
>
> The wires are real strange. At first glance they look like conventional 16ga
> stranded power wire, but they are more like insulated coax with no center
> conductor, just filler inside the braid.
>
> That's all I know. The dollar coin is used for scale, just to confuse
> everyone. Dollar coins aren't really used very much, except when given to me
> as change in my local parking garage :) The rope is about 18mm diameter.
>
> Happy Friday, everybody!
>
> Bob
>
> --
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[Chris McSweeny]

A bit of what I think is incorrect information there, which may help
explain things. AFAIK only a single glider was towed behind a tug aircraft
- having 3 being towed at once seems like a nightmare. Hence those 3 wires
are for a single intercom, which makes sense for a standard 2 way system
with a common ground.

As for such missions not being successful, on the contrary, glider dropping
of troops formed a vital part of the battle of Normandy as well as various
other major offensives. It was a reliable way to drop troops by air -
troops which didn't need to be parachute trained.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed_Horsa

Chris

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 22:09 Bob Blick, <***@outlook.com> wrote:

> The story I hear is that this rope was used to tow three gliders full of
> soldiers behind a DC-3 over France near the end of WW2. The gliders cut
> loose one at a time and had soft(crash) landings behind enemy lines. The
> rope has three insulated wires embedded in it that were used for
> communication between tow plane and gliders. A crazy wartime mission that
> probably wasn't very successful.
>
> The wires are real strange. At first glance they look like conventional
> 16ga stranded power wire, but they are more like insulated coax with no
> center conductor, just filler inside the braid.
>
> That's all I know. The dollar coin is used for scale, just to confuse
> everyone. Dollar coins aren't really used very much, except when given to
> me as change in my local parking garage :) The rope is about 18mm diameter.
>
> Happy Friday, everybody!
>
> Bob--
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[Bob Blick]

Hi Chris,

A single glider at a time seems a lot less crazy, thanks for the info!

Bob

________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of Chris McSweeny
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 3:54 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [OT] Tow rope with embedded wires

A bit of what I think is incorrect information there, which may help
explain things. AFAIK only a single glider was towed behind a tug aircraft
- having 3 being towed at once seems like a nightmare. Hence those 3 wires
are for a single intercom, which makes sense for a standard 2 way system
with a common ground.

As for such missions not being successful, on the contrary, glider dropping
of troops formed a vital part of the battle of Normandy as well as various
other major offensives. It was a reliable way to drop troops by air -
troops which didn't need to be parachute trained.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed_Horsa

Chris

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[Jean-Paul Louis]

Three gliders is very feasible, if you have reasonable distance between the gliders and ropes are under proper tension. The problem is with the tug plane, not the gliders.
When I was younger, I did similar thing, not in the air, but in water with 10 water skiers that created a pyramid (4 levels) when proper speed was reached.
Gliders are more 3D, but not more difficult than climbing on the shoulders of a fellow skier (very challenging) at about 20 mph.

Just a thought,
Jean-Paul
N1JPL


> On Jun 29, 2018, at 11:28 PM, Bob Blick <***@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> A single glider at a time seems a lot less crazy, thanks for the info!
>
> Bob
>
> ________________________________________
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of Chris McSweeny
> Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 3:54 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [OT] Tow rope with embedded wires
>
> A bit of what I think is incorrect information there, which may help
> explain things. AFAIK only a single glider was towed behind a tug aircraft
> - having 3 being towed at once seems like a nightmare. Hence those 3 wires
> are for a single intercom, which makes sense for a standard 2 way system
> with a common ground.
>
> As for such missions not being successful, on the contrary, glider dropping
> of troops formed a vital part of the battle of Normandy as well as various
> other major offensives. It was a reliable way to drop troops by air -
> troops which didn't need to be parachute trained.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed_Horsa
>
> Chris
>
> --
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[RussellMc]

I've read 'quite a few accounts' of WW2 related activity. I don't recall
mention ever being made of more tan one glider per tug, BUT itr's
conceivable that that may have escaped being described (but that seems
unlikely).

Many horrendous things happened to gliders and their occupants BUT they
were also very successful at delivering troops and equipment to the
battlefield in groups and without the need for parachute training and extra
equipment reqquired for paratroopers.

Losses were often catastropghic - released by tow plane over the ocean
[:-(][relatively few], shot down in flight (flak usually), bad landing due
to natural hazard, bad landinbg due to enhanced natural hazards (eg flooded
areas) or artificial hazards (eg Rommel's asparagus - wooden obstacles
with explosive charges attached), snapped tow ropes (ALL the heavy
equipoment gliders for Market Garden / a bridge too far campaign - they had
not learned the obvious lesson from the Normandy lanings), ... .
But even landings which appeared fatal could disgorge a more oir less
intact contingent of troops.

German glider l;osses on Crete were immense. All causes losses were 50% of
the invaders! (Try not to fight NZ troops :-) :-( ).

R

https://wiki2.org/en/Military_glider+Brights

https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/aerospace-defense/the-flying-coffins-of-world-war-ii

https://wiki2.org/en/List_of_World_War_II_military_gliders+Brights

Garglabet
https://www.google.co.nz/search?num=50&source=hp&ei=LXY3W72ZO46dhwP22bG4AQ&q=ww2+gliders&oq=ww2+gliders&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0l3j0i22i30k1l7.2698.6219.0.6555.13.11.0.1.1.0.222.1878.2-9.10.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.11.2102.6..35i39k1j0i131k1.220.rYGizDyE1ho

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ww2+gliders&num=50&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidgua7sPvbAhVQdt4KHc6wB20QsAQIiwE&biw=1680&bih=868
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[David C Brown]

Whist paratroopers were specially trained elite troops, paid extra because
of the danger of their task, airborne troops in gliders were just ordinary
with no special pay or privileges. According to my late father - who, as a
medic, had close contact with airborne troops - this caused a lot of
resentment.since glider missions were perceived as more dangerous than
parachute drops.

In the earl yeighties, when I was involved in Mountain Rescue, we trialled
something called a "talking rope". This was a normal 11mm nylon rope
with embedded wires brought out to a connector at each end into which was
plugged a voice unit. It proved rather unreliable, the terminations being
the weak point. Since small reliable radios were becoming available at
that time the talking rope was never widely adopted.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 30 June 2018 at 13:39, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've read 'quite a few accounts' of WW2 related activity. I don't recall
> mention ever being made of more tan one glider per tug, BUT itr's
> conceivable that that may have escaped being described (but that seems
> unlikely).
>
> Many horrendous things happened to gliders and their occupants BUT they
> were also very successful at delivering troops and equipment to the
> battlefield in groups and without the need for parachute training and extra
> equipment reqquired for paratroopers.
>
> Losses were often catastropghic - released by tow plane over the ocean
> [:-(][relatively few], shot down in flight (flak usually), bad landing due
> to natural hazard, bad landinbg due to enhanced natural hazards (eg flooded
> areas) or artificial hazards (eg Rommel's asparagus - wooden obstacles
> with explosive charges attached), snapped tow ropes (ALL the heavy
> equipoment gliders for Market Garden / a bridge too far campaign - they had
> not learned the obvious lesson from the Normandy lanings), ... .
> But even landings which appeared fatal could disgorge a more oir less
> intact contingent of troops.
>
> German glider l;osses on Crete were immense. All causes losses were 50% of
> the invaders! (Try not to fight NZ troops :-) :-( ).
>
> R
>
> https://wiki2.org/en/Military_glider+Brights
>
> https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/
> aerospace-defense/the-flying-coffins-of-world-war-ii
>
> https://wiki2.org/en/List_of_World_War_II_military_gliders+Brights
>
> Garglabet
> https://www.google.co.nz/search?num=50&source=hp&ei=
> LXY3W72ZO46dhwP22bG4AQ&q=ww2+gliders&oq=ww2+gliders&gs_l=
> psy-ab.3..0l3j0i22i30k1l7.2698.6219.0.6555.13.11.0.1.1.
> 0.222.1878.2-9.10.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.11.2102.6..
> 35i39k1j0i131k1.220.rYGizDyE1ho
>
> https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ww2+gliders&num=50&
> tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidgua7sPvbAhVQdt4KHc6wB
> 20QsAQIiwE&biw=1680&bih=868
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> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
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[David C Brown]

Seem to be used by divers these days
http://www.c-tecnics.com/products/diver-communications/communications-rope/

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 30 June 2018 at 14:55, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Whist paratroopers were specially trained elite troops, paid extra because
> of the danger of their task, airborne troops in gliders were just ordinary
> with no special pay or privileges. According to my late father - who, as a
> medic, had close contact with airborne troops - this caused a lot of
> resentment.since glider missions were perceived as more dangerous than
> parachute drops.
>
> In the earl yeighties, when I was involved in Mountain Rescue, we trialled
> something called a "talking rope". This was a normal 11mm nylon rope
> with embedded wires brought out to a connector at each end into which was
> plugged a voice unit. It proved rather unreliable, the terminations being
> the weak point. Since small reliable radios were becoming available at
> that time the talking rope was never widely adopted.
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: [phone]
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
> On 30 June 2018 at 13:39, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I've read 'quite a few accounts' of WW2 related activity. I don't recall
>> mention ever being made of more tan one glider per tug, BUT itr's
>> conceivable that that may have escaped being described (but that seems
>> unlikely).
>>
>> Many horrendous things happened to gliders and their occupants BUT they
>> were also very successful at delivering troops and equipment to the
>> battlefield in groups and without the need for parachute training and
>> extra
>> equipment reqquired for paratroopers.
>>
>> Losses were often catastropghic - released by tow plane over the ocean
>> [:-(][relatively few], shot down in flight (flak usually), bad landing due
>> to natural hazard, bad landinbg due to enhanced natural hazards (eg
>> flooded
>> areas) or artificial hazards (eg Rommel's asparagus - wooden obstacles
>> with explosive charges attached), snapped tow ropes (ALL the heavy
>> equipoment gliders for Market Garden / a bridge too far campaign - they
>> had
>> not learned the obvious lesson from the Normandy lanings), ... .
>> But even landings which appeared fatal could disgorge a more oir less
>> intact contingent of troops.
>>
>> German glider l;osses on Crete were immense. All causes losses were 50% of
>> the invaders! (Try not to fight NZ troops :-) :-( ).
>>
>> R
>>
>> https://wiki2.org/en/Military_glider+Brights
>>
>> https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/aerospace-
>> defense/the-flying-coffins-of-world-war-ii
>>
>> https://wiki2.org/en/List_of_World_War_II_military_gliders+Brights
>>
>> Garglabet
>> https://www.google.co.nz/search?num=50&source=hp&ei=LXY3W72Z
>> O46dhwP22bG4AQ&q=ww2+gliders&oq=ww2+gliders&gs_l=psy-ab.3..
>> 0l3j0i22i30k1l7.2698.6219.0.6555.13.11.0.1.1.0.222.1878.2-
>> 9.10.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.11.2102.6..35i39k1j0i131k1.
>> 220.rYGizDyE1ho
>>
>> https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ww2+gliders&num=50&tbm=
>> isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidgua7sPvbAhVQdt4KH
>> c6wB20QsAQIiwE&biw=1680&bih=868
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>
>
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[John Gardner]

Yahoo!

http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=747623

On 6/30/18, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Seem to be used by divers these days
> http://www.c-tecnics.com/products/diver-communications/communications-rope/
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: [phone]
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
> On 30 June 2018 at 14:55, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Whist paratroopers were specially trained elite troops, paid extra
>> because
>> of the danger of their task, airborne troops in gliders were just
>> ordinary
>> with no special pay or privileges. According to my late father - who, as
>> a
>> medic, had close contact with airborne troops - this caused a lot of
>> resentment.since glider missions were perceived as more dangerous than
>> parachute drops.
>>
>> In the earl yeighties, when I was involved in Mountain Rescue, we
>> trialled
>> something called a "talking rope". This was a normal 11mm nylon rope
>> with embedded wires brought out to a connector at each end into which
>> was
>> plugged a voice unit. It proved rather unreliable, the terminations
>> being
>> the weak point. Since small reliable radios were becoming available at
>> that time the talking rope was never widely adopted.
>>
>> __________________________________________
>> David C Brown
>> 43 Bings Road
>> Whaley Bridge
>> High Peak Phone: [phone]
>> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
>> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
>> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>>
>> On 30 June 2018 at 13:39, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I've read 'quite a few accounts' of WW2 related activity. I don't recall
>>> mention ever being made of more tan one glider per tug, BUT itr's
>>> conceivable that that may have escaped being described (but that seems
>>> unlikely).
>>>
>>> Many horrendous things happened to gliders and their occupants BUT they
>>> were also very successful at delivering troops and equipment to the
>>> battlefield in groups and without the need for parachute training and
>>> extra
>>> equipment reqquired for paratroopers.
>>>
>>> Losses were often catastropghic - released by tow plane over the ocean
>>> [:-(][relatively few], shot down in flight (flak usually), bad landing
>>> due
>>> to natural hazard, bad landinbg due to enhanced natural hazards (eg
>>> flooded
>>> areas) or artificial hazards (eg Rommel's asparagus - wooden obstacles
>>> with explosive charges attached), snapped tow ropes (ALL the heavy
>>> equipoment gliders for Market Garden / a bridge too far campaign - they
>>> had
>>> not learned the obvious lesson from the Normandy lanings), ... .
>>> But even landings which appeared fatal could disgorge a more oir less
>>> intact contingent of troops.
>>>
>>> German glider l;osses on Crete were immense. All causes losses were 50%
>>> of
>>> the invaders! (Try not to fight NZ troops :-) :-( ).
>>>
>>> R
>>>
>>> https://wiki2.org/en/Military_glider+Brights
>>>
>>> https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/aerospace-
>>> defense/the-flying-coffins-of-world-war-ii
>>>
>>> https://wiki2.org/en/List_of_World_War_II_military_gliders+Brights
>>>
>>> Garglabet
>>> https://www.google.co.nz/search?num=50&source=hp&ei=LXY3W72Z
>>> O46dhwP22bG4AQ&q=ww2+gliders&oq=ww2+gliders&gs_l=psy-ab.3..
>>> 0l3j0i22i30k1l7.2698.6219.0.6555.13.11.0.1.1.0.222.1878.2-
>>> 9.10.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..2.11.2102.6..35i39k1j0i131k1.
>>> 220.rYGizDyE1ho
>>>
>>> https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=ww2+gliders&num=50&tbm=
>>> isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwidgua7sPvbAhVQdt4KH
>>> c6wB20QsAQIiwE&biw=1680&bih=868
>>> --
>>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>>> View/change your membership options at
>>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>>
>>
>>
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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

> Yahoo!
>
> http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=747623

Yeah, but they are doing it in the full light of day, the point I was making was that during the war allied glider flights were all done at night AFAIK. Flying like that in pitch black is asking for mission failure with much loss of life.



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[John Gardner]

Um, well, I could'nt agree with you more... "8)

On 6/30/18, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Yahoo!
>>
>> http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=747623
>
> Yeah, but they are doing it in the full light of day, the point I was making
> was that during the war allied glider flights were all done at night AFAIK.
> Flying like that in pitch black is asking for mission failure with much loss
> of life.
>
>
>
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[Isaac M. Bavaresco]

Perhaps they had some very directional navigation lights that could only
be seen by the planes flying together in a tight cone or wedge pattern.

Cheers,

Isaac



Em 30/06/2018 20:15, John Gardner escreveu:
> Um, well, I could'nt agree with you more... "8)
>
> On 6/30/18, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Yahoo!
>>>
>>> http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=747623
>> Yeah, but they are doing it in the full light of day, the point I was making
>> was that during the war allied glider flights were all done at night AFAIK.
>> Flying like that in pitch black is asking for mission failure with much loss
>> of life.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>


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[John Gardner]

D-Day was about as good as it gets with airborne ops, so far.

A slightly more ambitious operation, a few months later...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden

On 6/30/18, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Um, well, I could'nt agree with you more... "8)
>
> On 6/30/18, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>>> Yahoo!
>>>
>>> http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=747623
>>
>> Yeah, but they are doing it in the full light of day, the point I was
>> making
>> was that during the war allied glider flights were all done at night
>> AFAIK.
>> Flying like that in pitch black is asking for mission failure with much
>> loss
>> of life.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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[David C Brown]

Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Bridge_Too_Far_(film)

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 1 July 2018 at 00:46, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> D-Day was about as good as it gets with airborne ops, so far.
>
> A slightly more ambitious operation, a few months later...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
>
> On 6/30/18, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Um, well, I could'nt agree with you more... "8)
> >
> > On 6/30/18, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
> >>> Yahoo!
> >>>
> >>> http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=747623
> >>
> >> Yeah, but they are doing it in the full light of day, the point I was
> >> making
> >> was that during the war allied glider flights were all done at night
> >> AFAIK.
> >> Flying like that in pitch black is asking for mission failure with much
> >> loss
> >> of life.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> >> View/change your membership options at
> >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >>
> >
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[RussellMc]

On 1 July 2018 at 11:46, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> D-Day was about as good as it gets with airborne ops, so far.
>
> ​I loved the comment by ?Rommel? that they started to move troops to react
to an Allied action but that "the unseen controller' saw their move and
anticipated their intentions and sent extra airborne troops to leapfrofg
their action and render it ineffective,
BUT in fact the extra ​gliders and paratroops were just part of the ongoing
landing plan with no controller fine tuning the deployment.


> ​_______________________________
>



> ​
> A slightly more ambitious operation, a few months later...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden


​The gliders did extremely well - far better than many other aspects of the
operation. ​
​Yes, the operation was a catastrophe. ​

​Very very very rapidly planned (of necessity)

Attempt to supply a major action over a very long road through enemny held
territory with raised roadway at a critical juncture with no ability for
vehicles to gain cover and ​hidden enemy artillery positions available
"everywhere" either side.

Inadequate backup of communications systems between ground forces and
aerial despatcher - loss of critical link completely cut field to England
communications and thios was never restored.

Bad planning of management of long serial access road reduced it to one
lane and troops were needlessly concerned asbout mine danger.

Vehicles sent over hundreds of miles with wrong ammunition for guins.,

Vehicles travelliung empty over portions of route when equipment was
available that could have been carried.

Enemy tank force unexpectedly "re-equipping" in immediatearea of main
target.

Two top enemy commanders with vast experience and capability "just happened
to be" in immediate vicinity of target.
(Model, Student!)

Criminal: Tow ropes broke on a relativelyt small percentage of gliders but
these included ALL the heavy equiopment (jeeps, field guns, ...) This also
happened in Normandy and they had not learned that such loads needed even
heavier heaviest tow ropsa and gear.

Key troops landed excessively far from targets and had to try to break
through unexpectedly strong resistance.

No planning or equipment for crossing oif canals competently and rapidly
when this would have made an immese difference.

Incompatability of comms nets and equipment meant isolated pockets of
communications.

Monty (unfair :-) ).

Quite a lot more.

________________________________


Genuine albeit non verbtim:

German (impressed): I was at Stalingrad. I see you are experienced street
fighters.
Captive paratrooper: This was our first experience of street fighting.
We'll do better next time.

____________________________

3 core towropes: Pass , alas.



​R
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[John Gardner]

One can make a case that airborne capability enables such fiascos...

"8)

...


On 7/1/18, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 1 July 2018 at 11:46, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> D-Day was about as good as it gets with airborne ops, so far.
>>
>> ​I loved the comment by ?Rommel? that they started to move troops to react
> to an Allied action but that "the unseen controller' saw their move and
> anticipated their intentions and sent extra airborne troops to leapfrofg
> their action and render it ineffective,
> BUT in fact the extra ​gliders and paratroops were just part of the ongoing
> landing plan with no controller fine tuning the deployment.
>
>
>> ​_______________________________
>>
>
>
>
>> ​
>> A slightly more ambitious operation, a few months later...
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden
>
>
> ​The gliders did extremely well - far better than many other aspects of the
> operation. ​
> ​Yes, the operation was a catastrophe. ​
>
> ​Very very very rapidly planned (of necessity)
>
> Attempt to supply a major action over a very long road through enemny held
> territory with raised roadway at a critical juncture with no ability for
> vehicles to gain cover and ​hidden enemy artillery positions available
> "everywhere" either side.
>
> Inadequate backup of communications systems between ground forces and
> aerial despatcher - loss of critical link completely cut field to England
> communications and thios was never restored.
>
> Bad planning of management of long serial access road reduced it to one
> lane and troops were needlessly concerned asbout mine danger.
>
> Vehicles sent over hundreds of miles with wrong ammunition for guins.,
>
> Vehicles travelliung empty over portions of route when equipment was
> available that could have been carried.
>
> Enemy tank force unexpectedly "re-equipping" in immediatearea of main
> target.
>
> Two top enemy commanders with vast experience and capability "just happened
> to be" in immediate vicinity of target.
> (Model, Student!)
>
> Criminal: Tow ropes broke on a relativelyt small percentage of gliders but
> these included ALL the heavy equiopment (jeeps, field guns, ...) This also
> happened in Normandy and they had not learned that such loads needed even
> heavier heaviest tow ropsa and gear.
>
> Key troops landed excessively far from targets and had to try to break
> through unexpectedly strong resistance.
>
> No planning or equipment for crossing oif canals competently and rapidly
> when this would have made an immese difference.
>
> Incompatability of comms nets and equipment meant isolated pockets of
> communications.
>
> Monty (unfair :-) ).
>
> Quite a lot more.
>
> ________________________________
>
>
> Genuine albeit non verbtim:
>
> German (impressed): I was at Stalingrad. I see you are experienced street
> fighters.
> Captive paratrooper: This was our first experience of street fighting.
> We'll do better next time.
>
> ____________________________
>
> 3 core towropes: Pass , alas.
>
>
>
> ​R
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> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>

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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

> The story I hear is that this rope was used to tow three gliders full of soldiers behind a DC-3 over France
> near the end of WW2. The gliders cut loose one at a time and had soft(crash) landings behind enemy lines.
> The rope has three insulated wires embedded in it that were used for communication between tow
> plane and gliders. A crazy wartime mission that probably wasn't very successful.

'Crazy wartime mission' ??? haven't you heard of the glider troops that were an essential part of d-day, capturing Pegasus Bridge and others putting out of action some of the batteries of big guns that overlooked the landing zones, before the ships arrived?

I have never heard of more than one glider per tug plane, the likelihood of gliders hitting each other would be too great, remember that practically every glider based mission by the allies was carried out at night. I could envisage the three wires being used for ground, supply and bidirectional audio between the tug and glider, as they would save as much weight as possible in the glider to maximise the amount of payload carried, so having a battery to power comms with the pilot would be something to do away with. It would need to be a large (probably car battery size) to last long enough for the trip across the channel and that would be quite a weight penalty, and in the event of a crash landing it would become a fire hazard as the gliders were all wooden construction.



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[Richard Prosser]

*The wires are real strange. At first glance they look like conventional
16ga stranded power wire, but they are more like insulated coax with no
center conductor, just filler inside the braid.*

The cable construction resembles that used (or at least was used) for optic
fibre cable to be laid over swamp. Since the tension on the cable varied
greatly, and the fibre would only survive a (very) limited amount of
extension, it was laid up around a soft core. As the cable was stretched,
the diameter deceases, along with the pitch circle diameter of the laid up
fibres. This provides additional fibre length to account for the
extension.

RP

On 30 June 2018 at 09:08, Bob Blick <***@outlook.com> wrote:

> The story I hear is that this rope was used to tow three gliders full of
> soldiers behind a DC-3 over France near the end of WW2. The gliders cut
> loose one at a time and had soft(crash) landings behind enemy lines. The
> rope has three insulated wires embedded in it that were used for
> communication between tow plane and gliders. A crazy wartime mission that
> probably wasn't very successful.
>
> The wires are real strange. At first glance they look like conventional
> 16ga stranded power wire, but they are more like insulated coax with no
> center conductor, just filler inside the braid.
>
> That's all I know. The dollar coin is used for scale, just to confuse
> everyone. Dollar coins aren't really used very much, except when given to
> me as change in my local parking garage :) The rope is about 18mm diameter.
>
> Happy Friday, everybody!
>
> Bob
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