[PIC] Tag-Connect

[Brent Brown]

These look cool, don't think I've seen them mentioned on the PIClist before:

http://www.tag-connect.com/catalog/5
http://www.tag-connect.com/tag-connect-pinout-specifications

"Microchip ICD / ICSP Tag-Connect 6-pin Cables with RJ12 Modular Plug for use
with Microchip ICD and compatible debuggers and programmers."

"Tag-Connect uses tried and tested pogo-pins (spring-pins) to make a reliable
electrical connection - a connection you can trust - for as long as is required."

Hope it works like it should... have designed into a project now, will be able to offer
more of an opinion soonish. I went for the "No-Legs" version (takes less PCB area,
but also more likely to work better with the extra thick PCB I'm using). Will use the
optional retaining clip during program dev/debug:
http://www.tag-connect.com/accessories.

Available from DigiKey and elelment14. Not cheap, but soon becomes good value
as PCB volume increases, given zero component cost per PCB.

For production runs (50 ~ 100 or so) I may make a small jig to hold things in place.
I'm thinking a routed outline in a piece of wood to locate the PCB, and a toggle
clamp/lever/thing to lower the programming plug into place and hold a little pressure
on it.

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[Harold Hallikainen]

I've been using these for several years. The "legged" versions have a
fairly large footprint, but are good for debug. The legless versions need
to be held in place, but work well for production programming. The clips
to hold the legless version in place are marginal and VERY easy to lose.
I've thought about undersizing the holes for the alignment pins a bit so
the board would hold the alignment pins securely, but I have not done
that. Most of my stuff has holes for the legs. A couple products don't
have room though, so I lost a bunch of retaining clips while debugging.

Harold




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[Brent Brown]

On 29 Jan 2018 at 20:26, Harold Hallikainen wrote:

> I've been using these for several years. The "legged" versions have a
> fairly large footprint, but are good for debug. The legless versions need
> to be held in place, but work well for production programming. The clips
> to hold the legless version in place are marginal and VERY easy to lose.
> I've thought about undersizing the holes for the alignment pins a bit so
> the board would hold the alignment pins securely, but I have not done
> that. Most of my stuff has holes for the legs. A couple products don't
> have room though, so I lost a bunch of retaining clips while debugging.

Thanks Harold, good to hear about your experiences. You mighn't have lost so
many clips if you used the official "Bend-It-Yourself TM" hanger...
http://www.tag-connect.com/TC20X0-CLIP-HANGER ;-)

I was wondering why the clips come in packs of three. I will glue one to my
prototype PCB and see if that makes it stay not lost for a reasonable time.

Brent

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[s***@agilent.com]

I've used these a bit too. I have found that the legs can be difficult to squeeze to release and remove. Especially for fat fingers. Plus, make sure in placement there is adequate space around the body to fit the fingers in! In one PCB we had an electro near-ish to the plug making it virtually impossible to squeeze the legs to get it out.

Since we had the pads as a "component" to allow placement of the footprint, we also had to mark them as "DNF" so they didn't appear in the BOM. Our CM wanted to procure them (i.e. the PCB side).

Stephen


-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Harold Hallikainen
Sent: Tuesday, 30 January 2018 3:27 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [PIC] Tag-Connect

I've been using these for several years. The "legged" versions have a fairly large footprint, but are good for debug. The legless versions need to be held in place, but work well for production programming. The clips to hold the legless version in place are marginal and VERY easy to lose.
I've thought about undersizing the holes for the alignment pins a bit so the board would hold the alignment pins securely, but I have not done that. Most of my stuff has holes for the legs. A couple products don't have room though, so I lost a bunch of retaining clips while debugging.

Harold




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[James Cameron]

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 04:53:03PM +1300, Brent Brown wrote:
> These look cool, don't think I've seen them mentioned on the PIClist
> before:

Just one previous mention on 9th July 2014, looking for lower cost
alternative, and you were in the thread using a staggered pin method.

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[Brent Brown]

On 30 Jan 2018 at 15:35, James Cameron wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 04:53:03PM +1300, Brent Brown wrote:
> > These look cool, don't think I've seen them mentioned on the PIClist
> > before:
>
> Just one previous mention on 9th July 2014, looking for lower cost
> alternative, and you were in the thread using a staggered pin method.

Seems I only searched my short term memory ;-)

The staggered pin method did work out ok'ish, maybe just a little bit
"non-professional" looking. In this case the product wil be built & programmed by
another company, so I like the idea of them being able to buy a programming cable
off the shelf and replacing it whenever necesary.


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[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

We have switched exclusively to these, or as staff likes to call them, the
'butterfly connectors' (look at the tag connect connector foot print with
the holes, it looks like a butterfly).

In the manufacturing side, we use the version with the side clips in the
automated test environment since our boards are connector heavy and they
don't lend themselves to a pogo pin arrangement, so we plug a lot of
connectors into the baords and then push 'start' on the automated test
system. The clip part slowly breaks off, probably after several hundred
insertions if you are careful. Once they've broken off, you can use them
as a no-clip version so I've started using the pin clips when doing r&d
with the ones that the manufacturing side slowly destroy by breaking the
clips off of the side of the connector (We probably go through about 6-7 a
year on the manufcaturing side, but still a lot cheaper than connectorizing
every board, or figuring out a pogo fixture).

I was talking with the inventor of these at a show somewhere, and he
mentioned that people have now figured out that you can actually do a
two-sided pattern where you have the pads on both sides of the board, and
then insert the clips from either side. Takes a couple of external vias,
etc. He mentioned people will mount a connector upside down in a test jig
and use them that way.



On Mon, Jan 29, 2018 at 8:53 PM, Brent Brown <***@eds.co.nz> wrote:

> These look cool, don't think I've seen them mentioned on the PIClist
> before:
>
> http://www.tag-connect.com/catalog/5
> http://www.tag-connect.com/tag-connect-pinout-specifications
>
> "Microchip ICD / ICSP Tag-Connect 6-pin Cables with RJ12 Modular Plug for
> use
> with Microchip ICD and compatible debuggers and programmers."
>
> "Tag-Connect uses tried and tested pogo-pins (spring-pins) to make a
> reliable
> electrical connection - a connection you can trust - for as long as is
> required."
>
> Hope it works like it should... have designed into a project now, will be
> able to offer
> more of an opinion soonish. I went for the "No-Legs" version (takes less
> PCB area,
> but also more likely to work better with the extra thick PCB I'm using).
> Will use the
> optional retaining clip during program dev/debug:
> http://www.tag-connect.com/accessories.
>
> Available from DigiKey and elelment14. Not cheap, but soon becomes good
> value
> as PCB volume increases, given zero component cost per PCB.
>
> For production runs (50 ~ 100 or so) I may make a small jig to hold things
> in place.
> I'm thinking a routed outline in a piece of wood to locate the PCB, and a
> toggle
> clamp/lever/thing to lower the programming plug into place and hold a
> little pressure
> on it.
>
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> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>



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[Brent Brown]

On 30 Jan 2018 at 0:13, Forrest Christian (List Account) wrote:

> I was talking with the inventor of these at a show somewhere, and he
> mentioned that people have now figured out that you can actually do a
> two-sided pattern where you have the pads on both sides of the board, and
> then insert the clips from either side. Takes a couple of external vias,
> etc. He mentioned people will mount a connector upside down in a test jig
> and use them that way.

Great idea, will consider that next time.

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[Larry Nelson Sr PE]

I use the Tag Connect cables all the time now. They work great. I use the ones without ears most of the time but if my board has room I use the larger footprint so I can use the one with ears for debug if needed.

On January 29, 2018 10:53:03 PM EST, Brent Brown <***@eds.co.nz> wrote:
>These look cool, don't think I've seen them mentioned on the PIClist
>before:
>
>http://www.tag-connect.com/catalog/5
>http://www.tag-connect.com/tag-connect-pinout-specifications
>
>"Microchip ICD / ICSP Tag-Connect 6-pin Cables with RJ12 Modular Plug
>for use
>with Microchip ICD and compatible debuggers and programmers."
>
>"Tag-Connect uses tried and tested pogo-pins (spring-pins) to make a
>reliable
>electrical connection - a connection you can trust - for as long as is
>required."
>
>Hope it works like it should... have designed into a project now, will
>be able to offer
>more of an opinion soonish. I went for the "No-Legs" version (takes
>less PCB area,
>but also more likely to work better with the extra thick PCB I'm
>using). Will use the
>optional retaining clip during program dev/debug:
>http://www.tag-connect.com/accessories.
>
>Available from DigiKey and elelment14. Not cheap, but soon becomes good
>value
>as PCB volume increases, given zero component cost per PCB.
>
>For production runs (50 ~ 100 or so) I may make a small jig to hold
>things in place.
>I'm thinking a routed outline in a piece of wood to locate the PCB, and
>a toggle
>clamp/lever/thing to lower the programming plug into place and hold a
>little pressure
>on it.
>
>--
>http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>View/change your membership options at
>http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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[Van Horn, David]

I put them into a number of designs over the past few years, a few 100k systems.
The tag connect cables wear out, but slowly if treated well. The cost savings was significant.
We used them for programming in production and for debugging in development.



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[RussellMc]

On 30 January 2018 at 16:53, Brent Brown <***@eds.co.nz> wrote:

> These look cool, don't think I've seen them mentioned on the PIClist
> before:
>
> http://www.tag-connect.com/catalog/5
> http://www.tag-connect.com/tag-connect-pinout-specifications
>


I love the $US1 paperclip.
http://www.tag-connect.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product/ClipHanger.JPG


The system looks pretty.
But, why are these thought to be superior to "Pogo pins" and an array of
holes or holeless-pads on a PCB?

The pogo pin "plug" can be custom built but it is likely that existing
multi-contact modules exist.

*Hundreds of examples here (1)
<https://www.digikey.com/products/en/connectors-interconnects/contacts-spring-loaded-and-pressure/311?FV=ffe00137&mnonly=0&ColumnSort=1000011&page=1&stock=0&pbfree=0&rohs=0&cad=0&datasheet=0&nstock=0&photo=0&nonrohs=0&newproducts=0&k=pogo+pins&quantity=100&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25>*

Russell


1.
https://www.digikey.com/products/en/connectors-interconnects/contacts-spring-loaded-and-pressure/311?FV=ffe00137&mnonly=0&ColumnSort=1000011&page=1&stock=0&pbfree=0&rohs=0&cad=0&datasheet=0&nstock=0&photo=0&nonrohs=0&newproducts=0&k=pogo+pins&quantity=100&ptm=0&fid=0&pageSize=25
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[Brent Brown]

On 31 Jan 2018 at 11:26, RussellMc wrote:
> On 30 January 2018 at 16:53, Brent Brown <***@eds.co.nz> wrote:
> > These look cool, don't think I've seen them mentioned on the PIClist
> > before:
> >
> > http://www.tag-connect.com/catalog/5
> > http://www.tag-connect.com/tag-connect-pinout-specifications
>
> I love the $US1 paperclip.
> http://www.tag-connect.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/product/ClipHanger.JPG

Clever, but I'm just as likely to loose the paper clip.

> The system looks pretty.
> But, why are these thought to be superior to "Pogo pins" and an array of
> holes or holeless-pads on a PCB?
>
> The pogo pin "plug" can be custom built but it is likely that existing
> multi-contact modules exist.

It not really much more than that... the extra bits are the 3 x (stainless?) steel
alignment/orientation pins, and they've gone to the trouble of specifying dimensions
and standard cable pinouts for typical programmers (like Microchip ICD), and you
can buy a finished cable off the shelf. The dimensions are getting pretty small to
build it yourself... pin spacing 0.050" = 1.27mm, but as you say mulit-contact
modules would make things easier. If/when I make a custom jig I will likely buy
another of these cables and base it on that... perhaps so the cable can be easily
replaced if/when it wears out.

PCB's arrived today and programmer cable fits, so that's a good start.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bef9dhbx0rls9p1/2018-01-31%2012.22.39.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ueka8hi9491nnym/2018-01-31%2012.24.44.jpg?dl=0

Connecting tracks are on the other side of the PCB, so that's why there are 6 x vias.
I toyed with the idea of putting the vias in the progammer pads, but ended up not
doing so. It would violate the specs of the tag-connect footprint, but if they were
significantly smaller than the programmer pins (0.5mm) then I think it would be fine.

Programming will most likely happen on assembled boards before they are fitted
inside their enclosures, but I made it so access can be gained once assembled
through the battery compartment. Pushing the 2 x AA batteries to one side gives
justs enough room for programmer plug and keeps battery power, else batteries
can be removed and power provided from programmer.

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[Josh Koffman]

On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 5:26 PM, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> The system looks pretty.
> But, why are these thought to be superior to "Pogo pins" and an array of
> holes or holeless-pads on a PCB?
>
> The pogo pin "plug" can be custom built but it is likely that existing
> multi-contact modules exist.

I ended up doing just this recently. Admittedly I was less worried
about the space my usual 5 pin .1" Molex took up, and more concerned
about the height. So I put the Molex in my board design. For my
programming prototype board, I populated the connector. For all others
I left the connector off. I made up a jig (3D printed, based on
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:33106 ) with a holder for pogo pins
(Also printed, based on this: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:22688
).

Worked well. Getting it on and off without bending the pins took a bit
of practice and a couple of revisions to make it easier. I used pins
that had a head wider than the pin size of the Molex so they just rest
in the tinned holes where the connector would be.

Josh
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[Brent Brown]

On 1 Feb 2018 at 18:47, Josh Koffman wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 5:26 PM, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The system looks pretty.
> > But, why are these thought to be superior to "Pogo pins" and an array of
> > holes or holeless-pads on a PCB?
> >
> > The pogo pin "plug" can be custom built but it is likely that existing
> > multi-contact modules exist.
>
> I ended up doing just this recently. Admittedly I was less worried
> about the space my usual 5 pin .1" Molex took up, and more concerned
> about the height. So I put the Molex in my board design. For my
> programming prototype board, I populated the connector. For all others
> I left the connector off. I made up a jig (3D printed, based on
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:33106 ) with a holder for pogo pins
> (Also printed, based on this: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:22688
> ).
>

Same here, fitted pins to PCB for development but used a jig for production, though
made without a 3D printer ;-)

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3vrl39tweer9u8j/2018-02-02%2017.16.43.jpg?dl=0

And used these spring contacts:

http://nz.element14.com/interconnect-devices/gss-3-3-8-g/spring-contact-probe-pcb
/dp/1382104?ost=1382104&ddkey=http%3Aen-NZ%2FElement14_New_Zealand%
2Fsearch

The pins were soldered to vero/strip board and mounted through holes in a plastic
enclosure base. The strip board brings the connections out to the side (not shown)
where 0.1" pins are fitted and programmer connects. PCB fits snugly into the base,
and pretty much stayed in place without any external pressure during programming.

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[Josh Koffman]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 11:54 PM, Brent Brown <***@eds.co.nz> wrote:
> Same here, fitted pins to PCB for development but used a jig for production, though
> made without a 3D printer ;-)
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/3vrl39tweer9u8j/2018-02-02%2017.16.43.jpg?dl=0
>
> And used these spring contacts:
>
> http://nz.element14.com/interconnect-devices/gss-3-3-8-g/spring-contact-probe-pcb
> /dp/1382104?ost=1382104&ddkey=http%3Aen-NZ%2FElement14_New_Zealand%
> 2Fsearch
>
> The pins were soldered to vero/strip board and mounted through holes in a plastic
> enclosure base. The strip board brings the connections out to the side (not shown)
> where 0.1" pins are fitted and programmer connects. PCB fits snugly into the base,
> and pretty much stayed in place without any external pressure during programming.

Your system looks great. Nicely done!

Josh
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[RussellMc]

On 2 February 2018 at 17:54, Brent Brown <***@eds.co.nz> wrote:


Very nice.
I see your Vero board [tm] lurking under there :-).


Russell
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[a***@stfc.ac.uk]

Well, that sent me off down a black hole exploring thingiverse ...

Pick up a few useful looking bits.

Thanks


> I ended up doing just this recently. Admittedly I was less worried about the
> space my usual 5 pin .1" Molex took up, and more concerned about the
> height. So I put the Molex in my board design. For my programming
> prototype board, I populated the connector. For all others I left the
> connector off. I made up a jig (3D printed, based on
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:33106 ) with a holder for pogo pins (Also
> printed, based on this: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:22688
> ).
>
> Worked well. Getting it on and off without bending the pins took a bit of
> practice and a couple of revisions to make it easier. I used pins that had a
> head wider than the pin size of the Molex so they just rest in the tinned
> holes where the connector would be.



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[RussellMc]

​

On 30 January 2018 at 16:53, Brent Brown <***@eds.co.nz> wrote:

> These look cool, don't think I've seen them mentioned on the PIClist
> before:
>
> http://www.tag-connect.com/catalog/5
> http://www.tag-connect.com/tag-connect-pinout-specifications


From the escape room connector thread the following connectors may suit
this application:

Adam cites:
https://ww2.mill-max.com/sites/default/files/external/catalog/2017-12/004-022.pdf

On eg their page 21.4 they have spring loaded pins with 0.019" diameter (!)
and targets / sockets to match at 0.050" centers in single or dual row.

Digikey list a very large range of MILL MAX connectors - including numerous
single and double row 0.05" centre spring loaded connectors that seem a
good match to this requiremenmt

eg 8 way 2 x 4, spring loaded pins 0.050" centres $6.68 in 188 quantity.
Non stock but gives an idea of what can be had.



R


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