[AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs

[Chetan Bhargava]

Are there any entities offering bare Arduino compatible PCBs? I need
to send a few overseas.

I know of Modern devices and Evil mad science. are there any more?

Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com
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[Michael Johnston]

check out www.sparkfun.com they have some arduino products Michael

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 8:51 PM, Chetan Bhargava <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Are there any entities offering bare Arduino compatible PCBs? I need
> to send a few overseas.
>
> I know of Modern devices and Evil mad science. are there any more?
>
> Chetan Bhargava
> http://microz.blogspot.com
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[James Cameron]

Long list of arduino related bare boards on OSH Park, which can be
ordered.

Go to https://oshpark.com/shared_projects and in the search box type
arduino and browse through the results.

These few look potentially interesting, though they are old.

https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/4AryKJMO
https://www.oshpark.com/shared_projects/zjaOlLK5
https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/IOZFPDWp
https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/17t0teB1

May be more on github.com

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[Chetan Bhargava]

I checked sparkfun but they don't have bare PCB for Arduino clone.

Oshpark looks nice.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 9:36 PM, James Cameron <***@laptop.org> wrote:
> Long list of arduino related bare boards on OSH Park, which can be
> ordered.
>
> Go to https://oshpark.com/shared_projects and in the search box type
> arduino and browse through the results.
>
> These few look potentially interesting, though they are old.
>
> https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/4AryKJMO
> https://www.oshpark.com/shared_projects/zjaOlLK5
> https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/IOZFPDWp
> https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/17t0teB1
>
> May be more on github.com
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
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[Bob Blick]

Hi Chetan,

Oshpark is awesome. I've been real happy with the results. They don't offer anything even slightly exotic but what they do is quite nice and they do it well.

If you submit your own designs to them, note their drill file parser is not super tolerant. I suggest GerbV to check your files before sending - other Gerber viewers may love files that Oshpark will drill incorrectly.

But if you are using already-tested community projects they should be good to go.

Friendly regards,

Bob

________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of Chetan Bhargava
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:31 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs

I checked sparkfun but they don't have bare PCB for Arduino clone.

Oshpark looks nice.

Thanks for the suggestions.
Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com

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[Neil]

On that note, Seeedstudio has been doing $5 for 10 PCBs (up to about 3"
x 3") for several weeks now and PCBway is now doing the same. With $21
for DHL, I can get 10 boards for $31 in a week.
Love these price wars!

Cheers,
-Neil.




On 8/18/2017 9:03 PM, Bob Blick wrote:
> Hi Chetan,
>
> Oshpark is awesome. I've been real happy with the results. They don't offer anything even slightly exotic but what they do is quite nice and they do it well.
>
> If you submit your own designs to them, note their drill file parser is not super tolerant. I suggest GerbV to check your files before sending - other Gerber viewers may love files that Oshpark will drill incorrectly.
>
> But if you are using already-tested community projects they should be good to go.
>
> Friendly regards,
>
> Bob
>
> ________________________________________
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of Chetan Bhargava
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:31 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs
>
> I checked sparkfun but they don't have bare PCB for Arduino clone.
>
> Oshpark looks nice.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.
> Chetan Bhargava
> http://microz.blogspot.com
>

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[Chetan Bhargava]

Thanks for the hint Neil ;-)
Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 6:41 PM, Neil <***@narwani.org> wrote:
> On that note, Seeedstudio has been doing $5 for 10 PCBs (up to about 3"
> x 3") for several weeks now and PCBway is now doing the same. With $21
> for DHL, I can get 10 boards for $31 in a week.
> Love these price wars!
>
> Cheers,
> -Neil.
>
>
>
>
> On 8/18/2017 9:03 PM, Bob Blick wrote:
>> Hi Chetan,
>>
>> Oshpark is awesome. I've been real happy with the results. They don't offer anything even slightly exotic but what they do is quite nice and they do it well.
>>
>> If you submit your own designs to them, note their drill file parser is not super tolerant. I suggest GerbV to check your files before sending - other Gerber viewers may love files that Oshpark will drill incorrectly.
>>
>> But if you are using already-tested community projects they should be good to go.
>>
>> Friendly regards,
>>
>> Bob
>>
>> ________________________________________
>> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of Chetan Bhargava
>> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:31 PM
>> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>> Subject: Re: [AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs
>>
>> I checked sparkfun but they don't have bare PCB for Arduino clone.
>>
>> Oshpark looks nice.
>>
>> Thanks for the suggestions.
>> Chetan Bhargava
>> http://microz.blogspot.com
>>
>
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[Chetan Bhargava]

Hi Bob,

The designs that I looked at OSH are not as feature-rich.

Evil Mad Science is local to me but *unfortunately* they have *not* heeded
to any PCB design rules for their Arduino clone PCB design (see inline
image).

In deed, they have a right Arduino clone outline and are conservative on
USB side (FTDI). I give them a +1 for an attractive mask + overlay as well.

As an engineer I ought to look under the hood though, unortunately.



Please feel free to express your thoughts about this layout as an engineer.


The PCB that I'm looking for is for my friend overseas, as he is getting
his feet wet.
I can send him <$3 Arduino clone from aliexpress
<https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Free-shipping-high-quality-UNO-R3-MEGA328P-CH340G-for-Arduino-Compatible-NO-USB-CABLE/32522378826.html?spm=2114.10010108.0.0.4b24ae2bkVDs7f&traffic_analysisId=recommend_2049_null_null_null&scm=1007.12908.76350.0&pvid=7d4825ef-feda-41ae-b6f6-96988b35e194&tpp=1>
(cheaper then the price of a bare PCB itself) but I would like him to build
one or two for himself.

Anyways, I'll think about working on a clone as time permits.

Regards,

Chetan Bhargava


Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com

On Fri, Aug 18, 2017 at 6:03 PM, Bob Blick <***@outlook.com> wrote:

> Hi Chetan,
>
> Oshpark is awesome. I've been real happy with the results. They don't
> offer anything even slightly exotic but what they do is quite nice and they
> do it well.
>
> If you submit your own designs to them, note their drill file parser is
> not super tolerant. I suggest GerbV to check your files before sending -
> other Gerber viewers may love files that Oshpark will drill incorrectly.
>
> But if you are using already-tested community projects they should be good
> to go.
>
> Friendly regards,
>
> Bob
>
> ________________________________________
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of
> Chetan Bhargava
> Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 4:31 PM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: Re: [AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs
>
> I checked sparkfun but they don't have bare PCB for Arduino clone.
>
> Oshpark looks nice.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.
> Chetan Bhargava
> http://microz.blogspot.com
>
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[RussellMc]

Nano is about the same functionally
"Pro Mini" has no USB and not worth the minimal $savings.

Nano $1.83

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Freeshipping-Nano-3-0-controller-compatible-for-arduino-nano-CH340-USB-driver-NO-CABLE/32341832857.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000014.1.4b24ae2b2BJz0n&traffic_analysisId=recommend_3035_1_86014_iswiall&scm=1007.13338.86014.0&pvid=bc2b2e9d-7d6d-4ced-88e3-a9ec808e91ac&tpp=1

I have had good results with Baite Electronic.
Quality is reasonable and functionality is as expected (which is not always
the case with Chinese Arduinos).
Pricing is usually competitive. May not always be cheapest but may be.
Free shpiping to NZ usually arrives in 1 to 2 week range.


https://www.aliexpress.com/store/213957?spm=2114.10010108.0.0.4b24ae2bFPdWie

eg Arduino Nano V3 $US19.20/10 (no cables), free shipping to NZ.


Russell
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[Joep Suijs]

Hi,

> ... functionality is as expected, which is not always the case with
Chinese Arduinos
Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean faulty units, production errors?
Or missing features?
I've used my share of Chinese Arduinos and had an occasional faulty unit.
Missing functionality until now has been limited to a missing LED in pin 13.

Regards,
Joep

Op vr 25 aug. 2017 om 08:41 schreef RussellMc <***@gmail.com>:

> Nano is about the same functionally
> "Pro Mini" has no USB and not worth the minimal $savings.
>
> Nano $1.83
>
>
> https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Freeshipping-Nano-3-0-controller-compatible-for-arduino-nano-CH340-USB-driver-NO-CABLE/32341832857.html?spm=2114.10010108.1000014.1.4b24ae2b2BJz0n&traffic_analysisId=recommend_3035_1_86014_iswiall&scm=1007.13338.86014.0&pvid=bc2b2e9d-7d6d-4ced-88e3-a9ec808e91ac&tpp=1
>
> I have had good results with Baite Electronic.
> Quality is reasonable and functionality is as expected (which is not always
> the case with Chinese Arduinos).
> Pricing is usually competitive. May not always be cheapest but may be.
> Free shpiping to NZ usually arrives in 1 to 2 week range.
>
>
>
> https://www.aliexpress.com/store/213957?spm=2114.10010108.0.0.4b24ae2bFPdWie
>
> eg Arduino Nano V3 $US19.20/10 (no cables), free shipping to NZ.
>
>
> Russell
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[RussellMc]

On 25 August 2017 at 19:45, Joep Suijs <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > ... functionality is as expected, which is not always the case with
> Chinese Arduinos
> Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean faulty units, production errors?
> Or missing features?
>

​I essentially meant "just works" as opposed to "fails to perform as
expected" or at all.​
I have heard various horror stories about Chinese sourced Arduino
compatible devices.
I found that the ones I have purchased from Baite "just worked".
Volumes not vast. 3 or 4 orders total and a few tens of Arduino
compatibles. UNO, Pro Mini and Nano equivalents.
The only notable difference is the use of non-FTDI USB bridge ICs (as
expected in low cost versions) so that a driver needs to be loaded on most
systems. This is painless once it is realised that it is needed.


​ Russell
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[Joep Suijs]

Hi Russel,

Thanks for the info.
I've read about a clone ATMega processor and heard quite a few horror
stories too.
However, so far I haven't seen any details of real obscure failures but
want to keep an open mind.
Having said that: dealing with a failing unit or an USB bridge issue
without the notion how to resolve it (including the FTDI issue a few yeas
back) can be considered a horror...

Regards,
Joep
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[Van Horn, David]

Other than not following the data sheet (bypassing, power pins, reset pullup and cap), the only real horror story I know of on the Megas is the low power crystal oscillator. Just don't use it. Non-deterministic code execution scares me.




-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Joep Suijs
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 9:05 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs

Hi Russel,

Thanks for the info.
I've read about a clone ATMega processor and heard quite a few horror stories too.
However, so far I haven't seen any details of real obscure failures but want to keep an open mind.
Having said that: dealing with a failing unit or an USB bridge issue without the notion how to resolve it (including the FTDI issue a few yeas
back) can be considered a horror...

Regards,
Joep
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[RussellMc]

Do note that ATmega 168 and 328 Arduino "clones" cost close to the same
price but the 328 has twice the memory in 3 categories

168/328

1k / 2k SRAM
16k /32k FLASH
512B / 1KB EEPROM

Older versions of the Arduino IDE did not have the 328 as a standard
processor but it has been present for a significant while (> V10?).



Russell
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[Chetan Bhargava]

Thanks for the pointers Russell.
Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 7:16 AM, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Do note that ATmega 168 and 328 Arduino "clones" cost close to the same
> price but the 328 has twice the memory in 3 categories
>
> 168/328
>
> 1k / 2k SRAM
> 16k /32k FLASH
> 512B / 1KB EEPROM
>
> Older versions of the Arduino IDE did not have the 328 as a standard
> processor but it has been present for a significant while (> V10?).
>
>
>
> Russell
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[James Cameron]

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 07:45:29AM +0000, Joep Suijs wrote:
> Hi,
>
> > ... functionality is as expected, which is not always the case with
> > Chinese Arduinos
> Could you elaborate on that? Do you mean faulty units, production errors?
> Or missing features?

Going back a bit, but the most exciting time I've had with a second
source Arduino Pro Micro is recovering from finger burns after
discovering that the regulator on board wasn't specified for 12V DC
supply. There's nothing like burns to make me re-read specs.

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[Peter]

On 26/08/2017 8:47 AM, James Cameron wrote:
> Going back a bit, but the most exciting time I've had with a second
> source Arduino Pro Micro is recovering from finger burns after
> discovering that the regulator on board wasn't specified for 12V DC
> supply. There's nothing like burns to make me re-read specs.
Oh yes!  Haven't done this with OP topic board second source Arduino Pro
Micro,
but have done with others, the... "And what's that's smell"...
finger finds hot burning smell... then needing to go find some ice quick...!
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[RussellMc]

On 26 August 2017 at 14:01, Peter <***@westnet.com.au> wrote:


> Oh yes! Haven't done this with OP topic board second source Arduino Pro
> Micro,
> but have done with others, the... "And what's that's smell"...
> finger finds hot burning smell... then needing to go find some ice
> quick...!
>
> ​Lonnnnnnnnnnnnng ago.
At university.
Had one only TTL 7413 ​

​IC.
Friday evening. Needed it for what I was doing over weekend.
Turn on.
Doesn't work.
Inspect .... OUCH!
Very very very hot.
Turn off.
It was inserted 180 degrees from correct.
What stupidity.
Visions of a 7413 less weekend.

Reverse.
Power up.
It worked OK
Wow!!!

Russell
​
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[William Westfield]

On Aug 24, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Chetan Bhargava <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Evil Mad Science is local to me but *unfortunately* they have *not* heeded
> to any PCB design rules for their Arduino clone PCB design (see inline image).

No image came through, but presumably you’re talking about Diavolino?
http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2010/diavolino/

Does the lack of 45-degree angles offend you? IIRC, the board was laid out with an experimental topological curve-based auto-router. While it looks “different”, I’m pretty sure you’ll find that it meets the specifications of any “typical” design rules you’d care to apply (other than “use straight lines that meet at angles in multiples of 45 degrees”, of course.)

OTOH, it lacks USB, which I’d consider a pretty severe defect in this day and age. It’s hard to over-praise the convenience of “just plug it in.”

Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway? What features are you looking for? My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc. And the final design was all-TH except for the FTDI chip.) China’s cheap derivative boards have put a big dent in the “slightly modified Uno-compatible” - they’re no longer just doing cheap knockoffs of the official design; they’re adding a bunch of semi-useful features, using cheaper USB chips, better power circuits, cramming extra stuff into the same space… I’ve toyed with the idea of updating the Freeduino, but it doesn’t seem worthwhile.

I was also pretty happy with the quality of boards I got from Baite. (Although I haven’t really put them through any significant testing…)

I’ve seen enough complaints about using Arduino Nano Clones with external power supplies that I’m suspicious - there could be a bunch out there with incorrect or sub-par voltage regulators (with the majority using using USB or +5v power, and thus never noticing… The same could be true of Uno clones.)

BillW


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[Mike]

On 25/08/2017 23:17, William Westfield wrote:
> On Aug 24, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Chetan Bhargava <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Evil Mad Science is local to me but *unfortunately* they have *not* heeded
>> to any PCB design rules for their Arduino clone PCB design (see inline image).
> No image came through, but presumably you’re talking about Diavolino?
> http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2010/diavolino/
>
> Does the lack of 45-degree angles offend you? IIRC, the board was laid out with an experimental topological curve-based auto-router. While it looks “different”, I’m pretty sure you’ll find that it meets the specifications of any “typical” design rules you’d care to apply (other than “use straight lines that meet at angles in multiples of 45 degrees”, of course.)
>
I quite like the routing to be honest, it looks very much like something
I would have made by hand routing in my youth (alas, a long time ago). 
The fact that you don't have long runs of adjacent, parallel traces is
often advantageous for crosstalk etc.

Mike

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[Chetan Bhargava]

Hello Bill,

I intended to attach this image.
https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1199/4727511688_2d683e3e5f.jpg

The angles are freestyle but not 45 :-)

Bill, I respect your thought but you mentioned experimental and
experimental should not be production. It could have been done better
manually.

Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 3:17 PM, William Westfield <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
> Does the lack of 45-degree angles offend you? IIRC, the board was laid out with an experimental topological curve-based auto-router. While it looks “different”, I’m pretty sure you’ll find that it meets the specifications of any “typical” design rules you’d care to apply (other than “use straight lines that meet at angles in multiples of 45 degrees”, of course.)
>
> OTOH, it lacks USB, which I’d consider a pretty severe defect in this day and age. It’s hard to over-praise the convenience of “just plug it in.”
>
> Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway? What features are you looking for? My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc. And the final design was all-TH except for the FTDI chip.) China’s cheap derivative boards have put a big dent in the “slightly modified Uno-compatible” - they’re no longer just doing cheap knockoffs of the official design; they’re adding a bunch of semi-useful features, using cheaper USB chips, better power circuits, cramming extra stuff into the same space… I’ve toyed with the idea of updating the Freeduino, but it doesn’t seem worthwhile.
>
> I was also pretty happy with the quality of boards I got from Baite. (Although I haven’t really put them through any significant testing…)
>
> I’ve seen enough complaints about using Arduino Nano Clones with external power supplies that I’m suspicious - there could be a bunch out there with incorrect or sub-par voltage regulators (with the majority using using USB or +5v power, and thus never noticing… The same could be true of Uno clones.)
>
> BillW
>
>
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[a***@stfc.ac.uk]

> Hello Bill,
>
> I intended to attach this image.
> https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1199/4727511688_2d683e3e5f.jpg
>
> The angles are freestyle but not 45 :-)

I would have said that is a planning sketch, not the actual tracking ...

But then I haven't looked at the Gerber files to what they have actually done.



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[Jason White]

Alan, that is a real design, those are the traces. That is a picture from
gEDA, the open source PCB layout program.

That certainly looks a lot like Dr. Salewski's autorouter (
http://ssalewski.de/Router.html.en , picture attached). It caused quite a
bit of stir on the gEDA mailing list when it was first released.

I don't see anything terribly wrong. No autorouter is perfect. Frankly, the
astonishing thing is that it works as well as it does (the program was
thrown together in somebody's free time, not by a team of professional
software developers)

On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 4:56 AM, <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:

> > Hello Bill,
> >
> > I intended to attach this image.
> > https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1199/4727511688_2d683e3e5f.jpg
> >
> > The angles are freestyle but not 45 :-)
>
> I would have said that is a planning sketch, not the actual tracking ...
>
> But then I haven't looked at the Gerber files to what they have actually
> done.
>
>
>
> --
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>



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[a***@stfc.ac.uk]

Ah, OK. Well, I don't see why it shouldn't work satisfactorily, just because it doesn't conform to an artistic aesthetic.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf
> Of Jason White
> Sent: 31 August 2017 14:12
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs
>
> Alan, that is a real design, those are the traces. That is a picture from gEDA,
> the open source PCB layout program.
>
> That certainly looks a lot like Dr. Salewski's autorouter (
> http://ssalewski.de/Router.html.en , picture attached). It caused quite a bit
> of stir on the gEDA mailing list when it was first released.
>
> I don't see anything terribly wrong. No autorouter is perfect. Frankly, the
> astonishing thing is that it works as well as it does (the program was thrown
> together in somebody's free time, not by a team of professional software
> developers)
>
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 4:56 AM, <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Hello Bill,
> > >
> > > I intended to attach this image.
> > > https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1199/4727511688_2d683e3e5f.jpg
> > >
> > > The angles are freestyle but not 45 :-)
> >
> > I would have said that is a planning sketch, not the actual tracking ...
> >
> > But then I haven't looked at the Gerber files to what they have
> > actually done.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jason White

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[s***@agilent.com]

Work - possibly/probably. Satisfactorily? Hmmm... maybe just, depending. The issue for me is not the odd angle, curvy traces but the poorly designed power and ground distribution (assuming only two layers)

Power and ground should not be left up to the auto-router.

Stephen


-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of ***@stfc.ac.uk
Sent: Thursday, 31 August 2017 11:43 PM
To: ***@mit.edu
Subject: RE: [AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs

Ah, OK. Well, I don't see why it shouldn't work satisfactorily, just because it doesn't conform to an artistic aesthetic.



> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On
> Behalf Of Jason White
> Sent: 31 August 2017 14:12
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [AVR] Arduino compatible bare PCBs
>
> Alan, that is a real design, those are the traces. That is a picture
> from gEDA, the open source PCB layout program.
>
> That certainly looks a lot like Dr. Salewski's autorouter (
> http://ssalewski.de/Router.html.en , picture attached). It caused
> quite a bit of stir on the gEDA mailing list when it was first released.
>
> I don't see anything terribly wrong. No autorouter is perfect.
> Frankly, the astonishing thing is that it works as well as it does
> (the program was thrown together in somebody's free time, not by a
> team of professional software
> developers)
>
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 4:56 AM, <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > > Hello Bill,
> > >
> > > I intended to attach this image.
> > > https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1199/4727511688_2d683e3e5f.jpg
> > >
> > > The angles are freestyle but not 45 :-)
> >
> > I would have said that is a planning sketch, not the actual tracking ...
> >
> > But then I haven't looked at the Gerber files to what they have
> > actually done.
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Jason White

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[Chetan Bhargava]

Hi Jason,

I completely agree with your input. There is nothing terribly
electrically wrong with that design. All lines connect electrically as
in schematic. No shorts!

I would like to emphasize on your point that no autorouter is ever
perfect. You can use autorouter (with rules) but for a production run
I would not at all recommend a design that is 100% autorouted. It is
just my personal EE preference and is based on generally accepted
principals of PCB design over the years.

In an ideal PCB design (been auto-routed) we would like power + ground
traces (ground plane actually) heavier than other traces (have to tune
the beast). Autorouter will follow that but a human has to tame (add
rules) it.

Has this autorouted design made better (by rules) or just autoroute ->
gerbers -> PCB fabrication?

Thanks.

Chetan

Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 6:11 AM, Jason White
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Alan, that is a real design, those are the traces. That is a picture from
> gEDA, the open source PCB layout program.
>
> That certainly looks a lot like Dr. Salewski's autorouter (
> http://ssalewski.de/Router.html.en , picture attached). It caused quite a
> bit of stir on the gEDA mailing list when it was first released.
>
> I don't see anything terribly wrong. No autorouter is perfect. Frankly, the
> astonishing thing is that it works as well as it does (the program was
> thrown together in somebody's free time, not by a team of professional
> software developers)
>
> On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 4:56 AM, <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> > Hello Bill,
>> >
>> > I intended to attach this image.
>> > https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1199/4727511688_2d683e3e5f.jpg
>> >
>> > The angles are freestyle but not 45 :-)
>>
>> I would have said that is a planning sketch, not the actual tracking ...
>>
>> But then I haven't looked at the Gerber files to what they have actually
>> done.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Jason White
>
> --
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> View/change your membership options at
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[William Westfield]

> In an ideal PCB design (been auto-routed) we would like power + ground
> traces (ground plane actually) heavier than other traces (have to tune
> the beast). Autorouter will follow that but a human has to tame (add rules) it.

Don’t most autorouters already do that? EAGLE’s does (assuming you different network “classes” for the power and signal wires.) Your photo (which is not quite the same as the picture on the website) definitely has nice thick power traces. I suppose I normally like to see ground plane wherever it will fit, but I’m not at all convinced that that has any effect on an electrically conservative design like the Arduino. (nor that it’s always a good idea. I always seem to wind up with some narrow little ground traces between sections of the plane that look suspiciously like antennas (on two layer boards.) Ah well.

I think I’ll have to agree with the opinion I’ve seen from a couple people that black soldermask (or heavily used silkscreen, as here) makes it annoyingly difficult to figure out where traces go on the board…

BillW


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[Chetan Bhargava]

> Don’t most autorouters already do that?

Unfortunately this one did not :-(


> I think I’ll have to agree with the opinion I’ve seen from a couple people that black soldermask (or heavily used silkscreen, as here) makes it annoyingly difficult to figure out where traces go on the board…

That's why I had to open it up in gEDA PCB to look under the hood :-)

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[Chetan Bhargava]

This actual snapshot from my gEDA setup. This image is only published by me.
Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Thu, Aug 31, 2017 at 1:56 AM, <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
>> Hello Bill,
>>
>> I intended to attach this image.
>> https://farm2.static.flickr.com/1199/4727511688_2d683e3e5f.jpg
>>
>> The angles are freestyle but not 45 :-)
>
> I would have said that is a planning sketch, not the actual tracking ...
>
> But then I haven't looked at the Gerber files to what they have actually done.
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
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[Chetan Bhargava]

Hi Bill, Sorry I did not answer all of your questions.

>>Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway?

So that I can send the bare board(s) to my friend overseas, and let
him build one or a few. I believe that is the whole idea behind the
Arduino revolution; so that one can build themselves. Isn't it?

>>My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc.

Sorry I was not able to find it? Please provide a pointer for all of us.


To add:
FTDI is based in UK *and* over the period of time they were unable to
bring down their prices. Hence, people had to adopt...
Arduino created their own USB to UART using special firmware on
another Atmel chip while the Chinese came up with a simpler (and
physically smaller) CH340 chip. I have not encountered any issues
using a CH340 based Arduino clone or any other gadget in Linux (and
windows). I personally can't justify the price of that (FTDI) chip.
Also the name FTDI comes to me as a company that kills/bricks their
chips. FTDI have earned a bad reputation IMHO.

As of today, (too hot in the Bay Area) I believe that spending >$3 is
better off (on an expendable & replaceable finished products) than
ordering bare PCBs ($5+ each plus parts).

Worst case, I would like to send my friend a (freeduino; please send
us the link) design so that he can bootstrap from where he would like,
starting from PCB itself.

Regards,

Chetan
Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 3:17 PM, William Westfield <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Aug 24, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Chetan Bhargava <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Evil Mad Science is local to me but *unfortunately* they have *not* heeded
>> to any PCB design rules for their Arduino clone PCB design (see inline image).
>
> No image came through, but presumably you’re talking about Diavolino?
> http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2010/diavolino/
>
> Does the lack of 45-degree angles offend you? IIRC, the board was laid out with an experimental topological curve-based auto-router. While it looks “different”, I’m pretty sure you’ll find that it meets the specifications of any “typical” design rules you’d care to apply (other than “use straight lines that meet at angles in multiples of 45 degrees”, of course.)
>
> OTOH, it lacks USB, which I’d consider a pretty severe defect in this day and age. It’s hard to over-praise the convenience of “just plug it in.”
>
> Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway? What features are you looking for? My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc. And the final design was all-TH except for the FTDI chip.) China’s cheap derivative boards have put a big dent in the “slightly modified Uno-compatible” - they’re no longer just doing cheap knockoffs of the official design; they’re adding a bunch of semi-useful features, using cheaper USB chips, better power circuits, cramming extra stuff into the same space… I’ve toyed with the idea of updating the Freeduino, but it doesn’t seem worthwhile.
>
> I was also pretty happy with the quality of boards I got from Baite. (Although I haven’t really put them through any significant testing…)
>
> I’ve seen enough complaints about using Arduino Nano Clones with external power supplies that I’m suspicious - there could be a bunch out there with incorrect or sub-par voltage regulators (with the majority using using USB or +5v power, and thus never noticing… The same could be true of Uno clones.)
>
> BillW
>
>
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> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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[James Cameron]

On Tue, Sep 05, 2017 at 05:00:54PM -0700, Chetan Bhargava wrote:
> Hi Bill, Sorry I did not answer all of your questions.
>
> >>Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway?
>
> So that I can send the bare board(s) to my friend overseas, and let
> him build one or a few. I believe that is the whole idea behind the
> Arduino revolution; so that one can build themselves. Isn't it?

No, not really. The basis of the revolution is a controller already
built, with an accessible and easy to install tool chain, and a
community of interest. Being able to build your own controller isn't
a common focus of that community.

> >>My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc.
>
> Sorry I was not able to find it? Please provide a pointer for all of us.
>
>
> To add:
> FTDI is based in UK *and* over the period of time they were unable to
> bring down their prices. Hence, people had to adopt...
> Arduino created their own USB to UART using special firmware on
> another Atmel chip while the Chinese came up with a simpler (and
> physically smaller) CH340 chip. I have not encountered any issues
> using a CH340 based Arduino clone or any other gadget in Linux (and
> windows). I personally can't justify the price of that (FTDI) chip.
> Also the name FTDI comes to me as a company that kills/bricks their
> chips. FTDI have earned a bad reputation IMHO.
>
> As of today, (too hot in the Bay Area) I believe that spending >$3 is
> better off (on an expendable & replaceable finished products) than
> ordering bare PCBs ($5+ each plus parts).

Pricing is set by economies of scale in production. banggood.com has
some populated PCBs from $3 or so. Buying bare PCBs and parts won't
get you that kind of pricing.

>
> Worst case, I would like to send my friend a (freeduino; please send
> us the link) design so that he can bootstrap from where he would like,
> starting from PCB itself.

Not the sort of friend I'd like. ;-) "Here, try this, but you have
to build it first."

>
> Regards,
>
> Chetan
> Chetan Bhargava
> http://microz.blogspot.com

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[Chetan Bhargava]

>
> No, not really. The basis of the revolution is a controller already
> built, with an accessible and easy to install tool chain, and a
> community of interest. Being able to build your own controller isn't
> a common focus of that community.


Not really IMHO, the magic lies in the Arduino software.

> Pricing is set by economies of scale in production. banggood.com has
> some populated PCBs from $3 or so. Buying bare PCBs and parts won't
> get you that kind of pricing.

I totally agree with you on pricing being set by
economics.Unfortunately FTDI lost that battle.



> Not the sort of friend I'd like. ;-) "Here, try this, but you have
> to build it first."

Yes, my friend is a hardcore Elektor reader and well versed in etching
his own PCB since 1980s. :-)
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[William Westfield]

> Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway?
>
> So that I can send the bare board(s) to my friend overseas, and let
> him build one or a few. I believe that is the whole idea behind the
> Arduino revolution; so that one can build themselves. Isn't it?

Well, perhaps originally that was part of it. It was certainly significant in my decision to jump on that bandwagon… But I think these days it’s more about building things using pre-assembled Arduino boards. Especially since you can get a pre-assembled Chinese Nano-workalike for less than the cost of DIP parts.

>
>>> My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc.)
>
> Sorry I was not able to find it? Please provide a pointer for all of us.

It’s the one that was sold by NKC (version 1.19.2 or something like that.) I thought they weren’t selling it any more, though.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6dMB5dovDUZNGRlMmRhMTItYjUwZC00YTY5LTgwMTYtYzU1NmU1NDQyMTQy

There’s also a slightly older set of 4 other boards with a “truer” form factor. One each using 0603 SMT, 0805 SMT, 1206 SMT, and mostly through-hole components. Those were all tested, and work, before we did further refinement of the TH version. Those are here: http://www.freeduino.org/freeduino_open_designs.html

There’s a more detailed explanation here: https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=174734.0


> FTDI is based in UK *and* over the period of time they were unable to bring down their prices.

They DID bring down their prices with the new FT230X and FT231X chips. Less than half the price of the FT232RL, and a smaller package. I think Adafruit and Sparkfun are using the new chips. (Note that they are slightly cheaper than the ATmega16u2 that Arduino Uno ended up using. Based on distributer prices, anyway (I’ve wondered what sort of “deal” Arduino has with Atmel…)


> the Chinese came up with a simpler (and physically smaller) CH340 chip.

Neither is as cheap as the CH340, though I’m not sure what the added requirement for an extra crystal does to a self-assembled design. The CH340 is in a more hobbyist-friendly package, too. I’m sort-of proud of the Advances the Chinese have made in the Arduino; they’re well past simple theft at this point!

BillW



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[Clint Jay]

Can you call it "theft" if it's an open source design?

On 7 Sep 2017 6:10 am, "William Westfield" <***@mac.com> wrote:

> > Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway?
> >
> > So that I can send the bare board(s) to my friend overseas, and let
> > him build one or a few. I believe that is the whole idea behind the
> > Arduino revolution; so that one can build themselves. Isn't it?
>
> Well, perhaps originally that was part of it. It was certainly
> significant in my decision to jump on that bandwagon… But I think these
> days it’s more about building things using pre-assembled Arduino boards.
> Especially since you can get a pre-assembled Chinese Nano-workalike for
> less than the cost of DIP parts.
>
> >
> >>> My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no
> I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc.)
> >
> > Sorry I was not able to find it? Please provide a pointer for all of us.
>
> It’s the one that was sold by NKC (version 1.19.2 or something like
> that.) I thought they weren’t selling it any more, though.
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6dMB5dovDUZNGRlMmRhMTItYjUwZ
> C00YTY5LTgwMTYtYzU1NmU1NDQyMTQy
>
> There’s also a slightly older set of 4 other boards with a “truer” form
> factor. One each using 0603 SMT, 0805 SMT, 1206 SMT, and mostly
> through-hole components. Those were all tested, and work, before we did
> further refinement of the TH version. Those are here:
> http://www.freeduino.org/freeduino_open_designs.html
>
> There’s a more detailed explanation here: https://forum.arduino.cc/
> index.php?topic=174734.0
>
>
> > FTDI is based in UK *and* over the period of time they were unable to
> bring down their prices.
>
> They DID bring down their prices with the new FT230X and FT231X chips.
> Less than half the price of the FT232RL, and a smaller package. I think
> Adafruit and Sparkfun are using the new chips. (Note that they are
> slightly cheaper than the ATmega16u2 that Arduino Uno ended up using.
> Based on distributer prices, anyway (I’ve wondered what sort of “deal”
> Arduino has with Atmel…)
>
>
> > the Chinese came up with a simpler (and physically smaller) CH340 chip.
>
> Neither is as cheap as the CH340, though I’m not sure what the added
> requirement for an extra crystal does to a self-assembled design. The
> CH340 is in a more hobbyist-friendly package, too. I’m sort-of proud of
> the Advances the Chinese have made in the Arduino; they’re well past simple
> theft at this point!
>
> BillW
>
>
>
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[RussellMc]

On 7 September 2017 at 17:26, Clint Jay <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Can you call it "theft" if it's an open source design?
>
> On 7 Sep 2017 6:10 am, "William Westfield" <***@mac.com> wrote:
>
>
> ​... ​
> Neither is as cheap as the CH340, though I’m not sure what the added
>
> requirement for an extra crystal does to a self-assembled design. The
>
> CH340 is in a more hobbyist-friendly package, too. I’m sort-of proud of
>
> the Advances the Chinese have made in the Arduino; they’re well past
> simple
>
> theft at this point!
> ​ ...
>

​No. A major aspect in the Arduino concept was that software and hardware
were open source.

With one significant but insignificant exception the Chinese are, without
exception AFAICS, adhering to that concept.

The exception is the name "Arduino". This deemed by the original creators
(all several independent groups of them) to be applicable only to the
"original" or "genuine" product.
While this may well be true at law, it is an unfortunate detraction* from
the overall concept as, if you are able to make something that walks just
like a duck and which uses duck DNA, to the extent that it is
indistinguishable from variants of 'real' ducks, it seems very unfortunate
that you are not allowed to CALL it a duck.
Permissible are Duck-like, Duck-compatible, maybe even Duck clone or
"copy", bur not Ducuino, er Arduck er ... whatever.

Maybe Arduin0 is OK?
Similar 'minor' obfuscation seems to work for eg the PDLO KNGIHT" genuine
non-wool (not labelled) hat I'm wearing at present (5amish, cold, got up to
do an urgent job, bed calls)



Russell

* add "IMHO"s as requisite.
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[James Cameron]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 05:50:30AM +1200, RussellMc wrote:
> The exception is the name "Arduino". This deemed by the original
> creators (all several independent groups of them) to be applicable
> only to the "original" or "genuine" product.

It was a good try, but I think their deeming may have failed due to
the effort it would now require on their part.

The "Arduino" has become a generic name, or product search term, as
far as third-party manufacturers are concerned.

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[Chetan Bhargava]

Thank you Bill. Sorry for a LATE reply as I don't get to check PICLIST that
often. My apologies. I may have missed lots of Russel's enlightening posts.

Thank you for delineating CH340 as price is no where comparable to FTDI
chips.

For my initial need, I bought an Arduino clone + couple of basic shields
and sent them overseas with someone I know. I bought it from Aliexpress and
was done below $15. I really wanted that person to BUILD his own Arduino
(clone) but sending pre-made was cheaper and less hassle than finding a
PCB+parts for him. Shields were a bonus.

Thanks.

Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 10:10 PM William Westfield <***@mac.com> wrote:

> > Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway?
> >
> > So that I can send the bare board(s) to my friend overseas, and let
> > him build one or a few. I believe that is the whole idea behind the
> > Arduino revolution; so that one can build themselves. Isn't it?
>
> Well, perhaps originally that was part of it. It was certainly
> significant in my decision to jump on that bandwagon… But I think these
> days it’s more about building things using pre-assembled Arduino boards.
> Especially since you can get a pre-assembled Chinese Nano-workalike for
> less than the cost of DIP parts.
>
> >
> >>> My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no
> I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc.)
> >
> > Sorry I was not able to find it? Please provide a pointer for all of us.
>
> It’s the one that was sold by NKC (version 1.19.2 or something like
> that.) I thought they weren’t selling it any more, though.
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B6dMB5dovDUZNGRlMmRhMTItYjUwZC00YTY5LTgwMTYtYzU1NmU1NDQyMTQy
>
> There’s also a slightly older set of 4 other boards with a “truer” form
> factor. One each using 0603 SMT, 0805 SMT, 1206 SMT, and mostly
> through-hole components. Those were all tested, and work, before we did
> further refinement of the TH version. Those are here:
> http://www.freeduino.org/freeduino_open_designs.html
>
> There’s a more detailed explanation here:
> https://forum.arduino.cc/index.php?topic=174734.0
>
>
> > FTDI is based in UK *and* over the period of time they were unable to
> bring down their prices.
>
> They DID bring down their prices with the new FT230X and FT231X chips.
> Less than half the price of the FT232RL, and a smaller package. I think
> Adafruit and Sparkfun are using the new chips. (Note that they are
> slightly cheaper than the ATmega16u2 that Arduino Uno ended up using.
> Based on distributer prices, anyway (I’ve wondered what sort of “deal”
> Arduino has with Atmel…)
>
>
> > the Chinese came up with a simpler (and physically smaller) CH340 chip.
>
> Neither is as cheap as the CH340, though I’m not sure what the added
> requirement for an extra crystal does to a self-assembled design. The
> CH340 is in a more hobbyist-friendly package, too. I’m sort-of proud of
> the Advances the Chinese have made in the Arduino; they’re well past simple
> theft at this point!
>
> BillW
>
>
>
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[Chetan Bhargava]

Hi Bill,

Which one is your freeduino?

http://mcukits.com/2009/03/12/assembling-the-freeduino-serial-v10-board/
https://www.freeduino.org/freeduino_open_designs.html
https://www.amazon.com/Freeduino-complete-Arduino-Duemilanove-Compatible/dp/B00417REHA
http://wiki.seeedstudio.com/wiki/Freeduino_USB_complete_Kit

Thanks,

Chetan Bhargava
Chetan Bhargava
http://microz.blogspot.com


On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 3:17 PM, William Westfield <***@mac.com> wrote:
> On Aug 24, 2017, at 12:26 PM, Chetan Bhargava <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Evil Mad Science is local to me but *unfortunately* they have *not* heeded
>> to any PCB design rules for their Arduino clone PCB design (see inline image).
>
> No image came through, but presumably you’re talking about Diavolino?
> http://www.evilmadscientist.com/2010/diavolino/
>
> Does the lack of 45-degree angles offend you? IIRC, the board was laid out with an experimental topological curve-based auto-router. While it looks “different”, I’m pretty sure you’ll find that it meets the specifications of any “typical” design rules you’d care to apply (other than “use straight lines that meet at angles in multiples of 45 degrees”, of course.)
>
> OTOH, it lacks USB, which I’d consider a pretty severe defect in this day and age. It’s hard to over-praise the convenience of “just plug it in.”
>
> Why are you looking for a bare board, anyway? What features are you looking for? My “Freeduino” design is still around, but it’s duemilanove-era (no I2C pins, no power auto-switch (perhaps a “feature”?), etc. And the final design was all-TH except for the FTDI chip.) China’s cheap derivative boards have put a big dent in the “slightly modified Uno-compatible” - they’re no longer just doing cheap knockoffs of the official design; they’re adding a bunch of semi-useful features, using cheaper USB chips, better power circuits, cramming extra stuff into the same space… I’ve toyed with the idea of updating the Freeduino, but it doesn’t seem worthwhile.
>
> I was also pretty happy with the quality of boards I got from Baite. (Although I haven’t really put them through any significant testing…)
>
> I’ve seen enough complaints about using Arduino Nano Clones with external power supplies that I’m suspicious - there could be a bunch out there with incorrect or sub-par voltage regulators (with the majority using using USB or +5v power, and thus never noticing… The same could be true of Uno clones.)
>
> BillW
>
>
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