Discussion:
Lithium battery voltages
David C Brown
2018-04-21 18:47:40 UTC
Permalink
I have bought a spare battery for ma Moto G5 phone and am wondering how to
charge it out of the phone. I can't find a suitable non-mains charger
anywhere so and resigned to building my own

The problem is that it is marked as 3.V rather than the expected 3.6 and
all the ready to go charge control chips work at 4.2 volts which is OK for
standard 3.6v cells but is too low for 3.8v cells

Does any one know of a chip with an adjustable output voltage?



__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



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David C Brown
2018-04-21 18:48:25 UTC
Permalink
Marked at 3.8 volts I should have said

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 21 April 2018 at 19:47, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have bought a spare battery for ma Moto G5 phone and am wondering how to
> charge it out of the phone. I can't find a suitable non-mains charger
> anywhere so and resigned to building my own
>
> The problem is that it is marked as 3.V rather than the expected 3.6 and
> all the ready to go charge control chips work at 4.2 volts which is OK for
> standard 3.6v cells but is too low for 3.8v cells
>
> Does any one know of a chip with an adjustable output voltage?
>
>
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
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Bob Blick
2018-04-21 20:34:22 UTC
Permalink
Hi David,

Charging it to 4.2 volts is probably just as full as you'd want to go anyway, so you should be OK.

Since I'm not a serious phone user, I try to pull my phone off the charger at around 80-85%. I also put the phone on an uneven surface so there's some airflow around it. I have over three years on my Nexus 6 and the battery still holds over 3Ah.

Here's a decent article about why phone batteries don't last as long as EV batteries:
https://incompliancemag.com/article/why-mobile-phone-batteries-do-not-last-as-long-as-an-ev-battery/

I've found universal battery chargers with spring slide and pogo pins for about USD 3 that usually fit most phone batteries. But the charge rates are pretty low, about .5A, so they take a long time.

Friendly regards,
Bob

________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of David C Brown
Sent: Saturday, April 21, 2018 11:48 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: Lithium battery voltages

Marked at 3.8 volts I should have said

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 21 April 2018 at 19:47, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have bought a spare battery for ma Moto G5 phone and am wondering how to
> charge it out of the phone. I can't find a suitable non-mains charger
> anywhere so and resigned to building my own
>
> The problem is that it is marked as 3.V rather than the expected 3.6 and
> all the ready to go charge control chips work at 4.2 volts which is OK for
> standard 3.6v cells but is too low for 3.8v cells
>
> Does any one know of a chip with an adjustable output voltage?
>
>
>
>
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RussellMc
2018-04-21 21:25:29 UTC
Permalink
On 22 April 2018 at 06:47, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have bought a spare battery for ma Moto G5 phone and am wondering how to
> charge it out of the phone. I can't find a suitable non-mains charger
> anywhere so and resigned to building my own



Rushing out so "super brief" (for me).

Some FEW cells have manufacturers voltage endpoints > 4.2V but it is a
dangerous and unnecessary territory.

Unless you want absolute maximum capacity (at the expense of cycle life)
then charging to below 4.2V max gives you longer cycle life and higher
while of life capacity.

It has been traditional to mark cells with no actual differences as 3.6 V
or 3.7 V.
This is not an actual voltage of significance but the mean voltage at which
mAh x V is about closest to overall Watt-hr capacity. ie an average voltage
of sorts.

Floating a battery to say 4.0V is "probably safe" and gives you most of the
capacity.
Better overall (life, safety, ...) is probably a scheme that charges to V
somewhat less than 4.2V and terminates.

If you want maximum longevity of whole battery when stored the voltage is
about 3.7V but the capacity is much lower. Applies only if storage and not
occasional use is envisaged.

Anon ...


Russell




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V G
2018-04-23 06:31:04 UTC
Permalink
I wouldn't float charge Li-ion cells. The best algorithm is voltage limited
constant current, and terminate charge when current drops to C/10 or so.
Don't go over 4.200V at any point. Lower termination voltage increases
cycle life and reduces stress on the cell.

See
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
for more information.

Also, don't build your own charger, you can find Li-ion chargers anywhere
for a few dollars.

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 2:47 PM, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I have bought a spare battery for ma Moto G5 phone and am wondering how to
> charge it out of the phone. I can't find a suitable non-mains charger
> anywhere so and resigned to building my own
>
> The problem is that it is marked as 3.V rather than the expected 3.6 and
> all the ready to go charge control chips work at 4.2 volts which is OK for
> standard 3.6v cells but is too low for 3.8v cells
>
> Does any one know of a chip with an adjustable output voltage?
>
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RussellMc
2018-04-23 08:28:11 UTC
Permalink
On 23 April 2018 at 18:31, V G <***@veegee.org> wrote:

> I wouldn't float charge Li-ion cells.


​Nor I, at anything close to normal max terminal voltage. ​
At lower voltages it c an be "safe" for most values of "can be".
Safe voltage is immensely dependent on more factors than most (certainly
including me) would have dreamed of.

Floating at 4.2V will destroy most LiIon cells reasonably rapidly and risks
plating out metallic Lithium with attendant risk of classic "vent with
flames" version of magic smoke making.

Floating "well below" this range may be safe. 4.0V seems likely to be 'well
below' in m,ost cases.

This paper - "Understanding electrochemical potentials of cathode materials
in rechargeable batteries" may reward the suitably entgusiastic reader but
I offer it mainly to show how much there appears to be to know to do other
than cite rote knowledge and whatever may have been gained by personal
experience.

available via here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1369702115003181

and possibly directly as a PDF *here
<https://ac.els-cdn.com/S1369702115003181/1-s2.0-S1369702115003181-main.pdf?_tid=fa5da7a3-960e-4ad4-bd45-dbc123adbc86&acdnat=1524469745_a13a4719b6d297279359e4dc38e4ac4d>*

_____________

The best algorithm is voltage limited
> constant current, and terminate charge when current drops to C/10 or so.
> Don't go over 4.200V at any point. Lower termination voltage increases
> cycle life and reduces stress on the cell.
>

​'Best' depends on objectives, but that's closish to common "road warrior"
spec.​
CV to 4.2V is standard.
CC to C/10 provides nominal capacity or slightly above at the cost of much
lower cycle life than can be achieved with HIGHEr termination CC rates.
Terminating the CC tail at C/2 or C/4 will give almost full capacity and
useful increases in whole of life mAh returned.

_________________

All tables below are from cited Battery University pages:

See
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
> for more information.
>
> ​Yes.
Their table 2 usefully illustrates some of the above.
At a cutoff voltage of 4.0V you get ~~75% capacity initially, increasing to
80% at saturation. In this case "floating" will not fully transfer
available Li ions.
At 4.00V they say capacity is 80%. Charging at C/1 80% is reached in 80% x
60 minutes * = 48 minutes.
Saturation is achieved in a total (they say ) of 150 minutes - or about 100
minutes to add the last 20%.

* I assume that at C/1 rate you'd get 100% capacity in an hour so 80% would
take 80% of an hour = 48 minutes.
LiIon *current* efficiency in charging is typically > 99% so this
assumption is very close to true.
Note that energy charge efficiency is less than current efficiency.

*Charge V/cell*


*Capacity atcut-off voltage*

*Charge time*

*Capacity with full saturation*

*3.80*

*3.90*

*4.00*

*4.10*

*4.20*

60%

70%

75%

80%

85%

120 min

135 min

150 min

165 min

180 min

~65%

~75%

~80%

~90%

100%

​Table 2 from
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

____

See also
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

From which table 2:

*Depth of discharge*


*Discharge cycles*
(NMC / LiPO4)


*Table 2: Cycle life as a function ofdepth of discharge.* *A partial
discharge reduces stress and prolongs battery life, so does a partial
charge. Elevated temperature and high currents also affect cycle life.

*Note: *100% DoD is a full cycle; 10% is very brief. Cycling in
mid-state-of-charge would have best longevity.
100% DoD ~300 / 600
80% DoD ~400 / 900
60% DoD ~600 / 1,500
40% DoD ~1,500 / 3,000
20% DoD ~1,500 / 9,000
10% DoD ~10,000 / 15,000 ​
​and, capacity loss with temperature:

*Temperature*

*40% charge*

*100% charge*

*Table 3: Estimated recoverable capacity when storing Li-ion for one year
at various temperatures. *Elevated temperature hastens permanent capacity
loss. Not all Li-ion systems behave the same.
0°C 98% (after 1 year) 94% (after 1 year)
25°C 96% (after 1 year) 80% (after 1 year)
40°C 85% (after 1 year) 65% (after 1 year)
60°C 75% (after 1 year) 60%
(after 3 months)
and similar figures to 21st table above but not identical

*Charge level *(V/cell)

*Discharge cycles*

*Available stored energy*

*Table 4: Discharge cycles and capacity as a function of charge voltage
limit. *Every 0.10V drop below 4.20V/cell doubles the cycle but holds less
capacity. Raising the voltage above 4.20V/cell would shorten the life. The
readings reflect regular Li-ion charging to 4.20V/cell.

*Guideline:* Every 70mV drop in charge voltage lowers the usable capacity
by about 10%.

*Note: *Partial charging negates the benefit of Li-ion in terms of high
specific energy.
[4.30] [150–250] [110–115%]
4.25 200–350 105–110%
*4.20* *300–500* *100%*
4.15 400–700 90–95%
4.10 600–1,000 85–90%
4.05 850–1,500 80–85%
4.00 1,200–2,000 70–75%
3.90 2,400–4,000 60–65%
3.80 See note 35–40%
3.70 See note 30% and less

_____________________

Also, don't build your own charger, you can find Li-ion chargers anywhere
> for a few dollars.
>
> ​Generally yes.
But there can be exceptions .
Note that the OP specifically wanted a non-standard voltage .

Those wanting long cycle life may wish to do CCCV charging at say C/1, 4.0V.
Or CC at C/1 and float at 4.0V.
Or ...
And may want to limit vVmin to eg 3.2V to get even more cycle capacity.

Or just CC to 4.2V and no CV tail.

Those doing solar charging in systems that may drop the available voltage
on occasions may wish to make special decisions about when or if to restart
charging if Vcell is 4.2V when voltage becomes available again after a
shadow. The cell MAY have been fully charged or may have been in a CV tail.
In the former case, repeated shadowing would result in charging restarting
each time the sun reappeared. This could lead to the equivalent of 4.2v
floating and raoid cell degradation.
This could be avoided by either a :supervisor) (usually microcontroller)
which kept track of battery state, or a system that never restarts charging
of a 4.2V cell on the same day once charging is terminated (except,
perhaps, when load has been applied).

ie custom algorithms may not be well handled by std ICs.

*A warning*: [A popular USUALLY competent US IC maker] make pseudo MPPT
solar chargers aimed at simplifying solar battery chargers.
A friend designed equipment based on these and had major problems due to
failure of the pseudo MPPT system to handle panel temperature effects well,
and issues with the IC's ability to operate consistently long term. Neither
of these is tightlt connected to the above butthey relate well enough to be
worth noting.


Russell
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V G
2018-04-23 17:53:49 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 4:28 AM, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> CC to C/10 provides nominal capacity or slightly above at the cost of much
> lower cycle life than can be achieved with HIGHEr termination CC rates.
> Terminating the CC tail at C/2 or C/4 will give almost full capacity and
> useful increases in whole of life mAh returned.
>

Ah yes, I forgot to mention that! I have a SKYRC MC3000, which is quite a
good charger. I'll change its termination current to C/2.
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David C Brown
2018-04-23 18:21:25 UTC
Permalink
What exactly does float charging mean? It seem to be a very Humpty Dumpty
phrase.

I don't particularly want to build my own charger so I would be very
grateful if you could point me at a USB powered charger for a GK40 3v8
cell. I have searched long and hard for one over here but no doubt the US
marketplace has more choice.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 23 April 2018 at 07:31, V G <***@veegee.org> wrote:

> I wouldn't float charge Li-ion cells. The best algorithm is voltage limited
> constant current, and terminate charge when current drops to C/10 or so.
> Don't go over 4.200V at any point. Lower termination voltage increases
> cycle life and reduces stress on the cell.
>
> See
> http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries
> for more information.
>
> Also, don't build your own charger, you can find Li-ion chargers anywhere
> for a few dollars.
>
> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 2:47 PM, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I have bought a spare battery for ma Moto G5 phone and am wondering how
> to
> > charge it out of the phone. I can't find a suitable non-mains charger
> > anywhere so and resigned to building my own
> >
> > The problem is that it is marked as 3.V rather than the expected 3.6 and
> > all the ready to go charge control chips work at 4.2 volts which is OK
> for
> > standard 3.6v cells but is too low for 3.8v cells
> >
> > Does any one know of a chip with an adjustable output voltage?
> >
> --
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Bob Blick
2018-04-23 18:39:14 UTC
Permalink
Hi David,

This is the type of charger I was suggesting:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-YIBOYUAN-Universal-Battery-Charger-Faster-Charging-Charger-USB-Port-For-Smartphone-Battery-ED288/32643457175.html

You'd need to put a DC input in it. If it won't run on 5V, you could just rip its guts out and treat it like a battery holder and put one of these chargers inside:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/2pcs-Micro-USB-Lithium-Battery-Charger-Module-1A-Micro-USB-5V-18650-TP4056-Lithium-Battery-Charging/32820305062.html

Best regards,

Bob

________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of David C Brown
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 11:21 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: Lithium battery voltages

I don't particularly want to build my own charger so I would be very
grateful if you could point me at a USB powered charger for a GK40 3v8
cell. I have searched long and hard for one over here but no doubt the US
marketplace has more choice.
Andrew E. Mileski
2018-04-23 22:02:00 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-04-23 14:21, David C Brown wrote:
> What exactly does float charging mean? It seem to be a very Humpty Dumpty
> phrase.
>
> I don't particularly want to build my own charger so I would be very
> grateful if you could point me at a USB powered charger for a GK40 3v8
> cell. I have searched long and hard for one over here but no doubt the US
> marketplace has more choice.
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown

"Float-charging" is a constant charge in order to maintain the cell at
full capacity. Lithium cells will bloat / rupture / explode in flames
if you do this.

Cells that can tolerate float-charging dissipate the excess charge
SAFELY as heat: Lead Acid, NiMH, NiCd (not recommended without regular
discharge cycling).

3.8 Volts seems like standard Lithium cell rating. That's just the
"working voltage" for the cell.

There are a few million Lithium chargers available on E-Bay for about a
dollar. Try searching for "TP4056" and "Lithium Charger Board". I seem
to recall some have thermistor support, as well as some being
combination boards with built-in over-discharge protection.

The #1 Lithium charger designer error: trying to charge exactly 4.20
Volts when the hardware doesn't support millivolt regulation over the
entire operating temperature and current range. Some chargers opt to
charge to a slightly lower voltage, for say 50 mV of margin at 4.15
Volts, but even that requires about 1% regulation.

It is just a headache to design a good & safe Lithium charger, so I
don't recommend doing it, unless it is some sort of personal quest.

~~
Andrew E. Mileski
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James Cameron
2018-04-23 23:22:11 UTC
Permalink
It would seem "float charging" has acquired two meanings;

1. the circuit configuration; current or power limited source with
constant voltage connected to battery for unlimited time,

2. the use-case; charger permanently connected to maintain a battery
ready for discharge.

The "float charging" circuit configuration is common practice for
NiCD, NiMH, and lead acid batteries. Among others. As the battery
voltage rises, current falls to a minimum. It is easy to see how it
could be applied to the lithium chemistries, but has never been
advised by any of the cell manufacturers I've worked with. I'm quite
willing to have a manufacturer say I can do it, but so far they
haven't. ;-)

The "float charging" use-case is implemented with lithium chemistries
using a charge controller with at least three states;

- provides constant current, terminating when voltage exceeds a
threshold, or time expiry,

- provides constant voltage, terminating when current falls below a
threshold, or time expiry,

- does not charge, but monitors voltage and restarts when the voltage
falls below a threshold.

Sometimes the first two states are combined by connecting a constant
current source through a voltage regulator; which behaves about the
same.

I'm aware of a special case; where a circuit looks like a float
charging design, but the system is discharged to cut-off every day, so
it's more of an interrupted charge cycle. Think of solar powered
garden lights. Will they overcharge at the south pole in summer? ;-)

--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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William Westfield
2018-04-24 01:22:06 UTC
Permalink
> The "float charging" circuit configuration is common practice for NiCD, NiMH, and lead acid batteries. Among others. As the battery voltage rises, current falls to a minimum.

That’s not actually true of NiCd or NiMH cells, which are normally charged from a constant-current supply. Probably “float charging” of NiCd cells is at least partially responsible for the bad reputation of NiCd/NiMH batteries; chargers would up the charge current to charge faster, without adding the ‘smarts’ needed to detect when cells were charged, or reduce the current to a reasonable “float” value at that point.

Lead Acid and LiIon batteries are both charged at (essentially) constant voltage, and the current DO ramp down as full charge is reached. I’m not sure why this isn’t an allowed practice for LiIon; there is supposed to be a time limit so that you don’t continue to pump substantial currents into a “dead” cell, but… (I guess the risk of “rapid venting with flames” is a problem :-) )

BillW


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V G
2018-04-24 02:01:14 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 9:22 PM, William Westfield <***@mac.com> wrote:

> Lead Acid and LiIon batteries are both charged at (essentially) constant
> voltage, and the current DO ramp down as full charge is reached. I’m not
> sure why this isn’t an allowed practice for LiIon;


At the very least, high voltages stress the cell and rapidly permanently
degrade capacity.

If you have a Nest thermostat or such, it displays its current battery
voltage. You'll notice that it never lets it go above 3.9V or so entirely
for the purpose of maximizing service life of the cell. Lower termination
voltages reduce the total energy stored in the cell, but they stress it far
less. I've been running experiments with random devices (phones, laptops,
18650 cells) for at least 5 years and regularly test discharge capacity. I
have a MacBook Pro battery that is still providing 96% of its design
capacity after five years because I unplugged the battery and stored it at
40% SoC at room temperature (not even in the fridge!). I have a couple of
phones which I abused (stored at 100% SoC, plugged into the charger for a
year straight), and their capacity rapidly degraded pretty consistently
with the figures shown on batteryuniversity. I have another MacBook that is
just a couple of years old and regularly cycled from 0-100% SoC, stored
plugged in for extended periods of time, and the battery has now degraded
to about 70% of the original capacity.
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RussellMc
2018-04-24 13:26:57 UTC
Permalink
On 24 April 2018 at 11:22, James Cameron <***@laptop.org> wrote:

> It would seem "float charging" has acquired two meanings;
>
> 1. the circuit configuration; current or power limited source with
> constant voltage connected to battery for unlimited time,
>
> 2. the use-case; charger permanently connected to maintain a battery
> ready for discharge.
>
>
I'll "suggest" that "float charging" means and has always meant (in
unqualified use) ​- apply a constant voltage to a battery permanently.

Several people have suggested that NimH cells may be float charged.
This is not the case for most modern consumer cells - most typically Aa,
but also C, D etc.
For AA cells, manufacturers used to provide chemistry used to recombine
electrolysis products (mainly H2, O2) which occurred when the battery was
fully charged.
Trickle charge rate was specified as <= C/10 for NiCd and NimH.

For NimH, this practice was discontinued when cell capacity reached around
1500-1800 mAh with the room freed up being used for extra active materials.
Any std consumer cell with >= say 2000 mAh capacity has NO long term
trickle charge capacity. Most manufacturers specify a VERY LIMITED period
of post full-capacity charging - maybe < 1 hour at C/10?.
A few (brave?) manufacturers allow a say C/100 rate for a period of hours.

LiIon MUST NOT be trickle charged at voltages >= 4.2V and below that it is
really slow charging and not trickle charging.

As I noted previously:
- LiIon cells MUST not be "floated" at 4.2V.
- Floating may be done at say <= 4.0V but even at such lower voltages
charge and terminate is preferable.



> The "float charging" circuit configuration is common practice for
> NiCD, NiMH, and lead acid batteries. Among others.


​See above.

As the battery
> voltage rises, current falls to a minimum. It is easy to see how it
> could be applied to the lithium chemistries, but has never been
> advised by any of the cell manufacturers I've worked with. I'm quite
> willing to have a manufacturer say I can do it, but so far they
> haven't. ;-)
>
> ​Due (probably) to manufacturers dealing in "full capacity" charging where
floating is anathema. See above. ​

The "float charging" use-case is implemented with lithium chemistries
> using a charge controller with at least three states;
>
> - provides constant current, terminating when voltage exceeds a
> threshold, or time expiry,
>

​Voltage threshold - Yes.

Time expiry - only if V guaranteed to ALWAYS be <= Vmax
or if battery expiry before time expiry is acceptable.


> - provides constant voltage, terminating when current falls below a
> threshold, or time expiry,
>
> ​As above, time expiry, not usually. Not quite as bad as CC.

Current falling below threshold - yes, BUT this is not float charging - it
is just part of the main charge cycle.


> - does not charge, but monitors voltage and restarts when the voltage
> falls below a threshold.
>

​Yes. But float charging without applied voltage is hardly charging :-).


> Sometimes the first two states are combined by connecting a constant
> current source through a voltage regulator; which behaves about the
> same.
>
> ​Sort of maybe. As long as Vreg <= Vmax.​

​That will then charge at CC whilel V< Vreg then at Vreg while current
falls under battery chemustry control to C/X endpoint.​



​ Russell​
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Andrew E. Mileski
2018-04-24 18:03:25 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-04-24 09:26, RussellMc wrote:
>
> Several people have suggested that NimH cells may be float charged.
> This is not the case for most modern consumer cells - most typically Aa,
> but also C, D etc.

Typically NiMH are floated at C/5 to help reduce stress on the cells.
They are less tolerant of overcharge than NiCd, but NiCd need regular
discharge cycling to preserve their capacity. I also recommend floating
NiCd at C/5 as opposed to C/10 (normal slow charging rate).

I have a few LED night-lights that float NiMH to cover power outages.
NiMH are also commonly found in outdoor solar-powered lighting, since
they don't require a sop[sophisticated charging circuit.

NiCd is really a dead battery chemistry, because of the cell toxicity
(banned in some jurisdictions, others may lack disposal facilities), and
requirement of proper cycling. Example: in power-tools NiCd have been
replaced with Lithium Ion cells.

I didn't get into the specifics of battery chemistries in my previous
message, or charging algorithms, because it wasn't relevant to the
points I was trying to make.

I am an RC & e-flight hobbyist of a few decades now, and have
successfully used my old "Alpha 4" charger to float NiMH packs at C/5.
I've used packs made of consumer cells without problems, or without
adversely affecting their longevity.

Floating lead-acid batteries has actually been more problematic for me
than NiMH, as wet & vented lead-acid batteries will lose water at an
accelerated rate when floated. Sealed gel and AGM batteries are not a
problem though at low float currents, where the gases are trapped by
design, and can recombine.

However, we've strayed far off the original topic.

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Van Horn, David
2018-04-24 18:34:47 UTC
Permalink
Read the data sheets.

Some NIMH cells will "tolerate" extended float charge. Most specify ZERO float current.
If you violate the specs, it will cost you.

"I did it on my one-off project and didn't have problems" is pretty meaningless.

People solder directly to these cells too, and usually have no issues. However talk to one of the engineers who designs these cells, and the response will be something along the lines of "fine, you do that, while I get behind this concrete wall..."


>I have a few LED night-lights that float NiMH to cover power outages.
>NiMH are also commonly found in outdoor solar-powered lighting, since they don't require a sop[sophisticated charging circuit.


As one who has designed full-spec chargers for NIMH chemistry, IMHO it is the most complicated chemistry to deal with.
The circuit itself isn't that bad, but I ended up with six modes and a complicated state machine to assure proper transitions to deal with all the requirements spelled out in the data sheet.




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Andrew E. Mileski
2018-04-24 18:57:57 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-04-24 14:34, Van Horn, David wrote:
> Read the data sheets.

Agreed. Always.

> Some NIMH cells will "tolerate" extended float charge. Most specify ZERO float current.
> If you violate the specs, it will cost you.
>
> "I did it on my one-off project and didn't have problems" is pretty meaningless.

Yes, if you plan to manufacture them commercially, I agree. The
liability aspect requires proven engineering when insurance and courts
are concerned,


> People solder directly to these cells too, and usually have no issues. However talk to one of the engineers who designs these cells, and the response will be something along the lines of "fine, you do that, while I get behind this concrete wall..."

Agreed. Probably also why battery spot welders are a popular homebrew
topic.

>> I have a few LED night-lights that float NiMH to cover power outages.
>> NiMH are also commonly found in outdoor solar-powered lighting, since they don't require a sop[sophisticated charging circuit.
>
> As one who has designed full-spec chargers for NIMH chemistry, IMHO it is the most complicated chemistry to deal with.
> The circuit itself isn't that bad, but I ended up with six modes and a complicated state machine to assure proper transitions to deal with all the requirements spelled out in the data sheet.

You are assuming an optimal "normal" charge. I totally agree. It can
be tricky to sense the cell peak too; some of my commercial chargers
have had several firmware updates for that alone.

However, if you charge them at a very low rate (like the solar example),
you can get a partial charge which doesn't violate the datasheets, and
is sufficient for the purpose (a few hours of lighting after sunset).

~~
Andrew E. Mileski
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Van Horn, David
2018-04-24 19:30:37 UTC
Permalink
>> "I did it on my one-off project and didn't have problems" is pretty meaningless.

>Yes, if you plan to manufacture them commercially, I agree. The liability aspect requires proven engineering when insurance and courts are concerned,

And when you want to build thousands to millions and have them work.



>However, if you charge them at a very low rate (like the solar example), you can get a partial charge which doesn't violate the datasheets, and is
>sufficient for the purpose (a few hours of lighting after sunset).

As long as the data sheet parameters are respected, OR you're willing to live with the consequences (shortened cell life at a minimum, catastrophic failure at a maximum, even many hours after disconnection from the system)

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V G
2018-04-25 08:40:43 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 2:34 PM, Van Horn, David <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> Some NIMH cells will "tolerate" extended float charge. Most specify ZERO
> float current.
> If you violate the specs, it will cost you.
>
> "I did it on my one-off project and didn't have problems" is pretty
> meaningless.
>
> People solder directly to these cells too, and usually have no issues.
> However talk to one of the engineers who designs these cells, and the
> response will be something along the lines of "fine, you do that, while I
> get behind this concrete wall..."
>

For Li-ion, it's a risky thing to do, but does the same go for NiMH in
terms of personal safety? I can imagine it damaging the cell, but NiMH are
known to be safe at high temperatures, that is, non-explosive.
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William Westfield
2018-04-25 11:31:24 UTC
Permalink
On Apr 25, 2018, at 1:40 AM, V G <***@veegee.org> wrote:

> For Li-ion, it's a risky thing to do, but does the same go for NiMH in terms of personal safety?

Probably not. The big reason that Li-ions are such a problem is that the electrolyte used is flammable (nasty organic stuff that doesn’t react with lithium), whereas NiMh are generally aqueous.
OTOH, NiMH can apparently contain pyrophorically-fine metal, metal-hydride and/or carbon, so if they dry out, burst, and get exposed to enough oxygen, they could start a fire (though presumably less violently than LiIon.)

https://youtu.be/tBg4ximDrsk?t=16m

BillW


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Van Horn, David
2018-04-25 12:49:37 UTC
Permalink
The electrolyte is a strong alkaline, I witnessed a NIMH failure that vented boiling electrolyte and delaminated the PCB that happened to be sitting next to it.
All this while the pack had been disconnected from the system for some hours.
The failure was eventually traced to the manufacturer (Chinese) not using enough catalyst to recombine the hydrogen and oxygen in the cell.
Probably also the vent was non-functional but we couldn't prove that from the remains.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of William Westfield
Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 5:31 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Lithium battery voltages

On Apr 25, 2018, at 1:40 AM, V G <***@veegee.org> wrote:

> For Li-ion, it's a risky thing to do, but does the same go for NiMH in terms of personal safety?

Probably not. The big reason that Li-ions are such a problem is that the electrolyte used is flammable (nasty organic stuff that doesn't react with lithium), whereas NiMh are generally aqueous.
OTOH, NiMH can apparently contain pyrophorically-fine metal, metal-hydride and/or carbon, so if they dry out, burst, and get exposed to enough oxygen, they could start a fire (though presumably less violently than LiIon.)

https://youtu.be/tBg4ximDrsk?t=16m

BillW


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Sean Breheny
2018-04-25 21:36:48 UTC
Permalink
I had a NiMH cell which I tried to solder to and which experienced an
internal short due to the soldering heat melting a plastic separator
(presumably). I had only briefly applied heat to the positive terminal and
suddenly the entire cell got hot enough to melt its external printed
wrapping, have the metal case swell, and burn my fingers (mildly) before my
pain reflex caused me to let go of it.

On Apr 25, 2018 8:50 AM, "Van Horn, David" <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> The electrolyte is a strong alkaline, I witnessed a NIMH failure that
> vented boiling electrolyte and delaminated the PCB that happened to be
> sitting next to it.
> All this while the pack had been disconnected from the system for some
> hours.
> The failure was eventually traced to the manufacturer (Chinese) not using
> enough catalyst to recombine the hydrogen and oxygen in the cell.
> Probably also the vent was non-functional but we couldn't prove that from
> the remains.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> William Westfield
> Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2018 5:31 AM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: Lithium battery voltages
>
> On Apr 25, 2018, at 1:40 AM, V G <***@veegee.org> wrote:
>
> > For Li-ion, it's a risky thing to do, but does the same go for NiMH in
> terms of personal safety?
>
> Probably not. The big reason that Li-ions are such a problem is that the
> electrolyte used is flammable (nasty organic stuff that doesn't react with
> lithium), whereas NiMh are generally aqueous.
> OTOH, NiMH can apparently contain pyrophorically-fine metal, metal-hydride
> and/or carbon, so if they dry out, burst, and get exposed to enough oxygen,
> they could start a fire (though presumably less violently than LiIon.)
>
> https://youtu.be/tBg4ximDrsk?t=16m
>
> BillW
>
>
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RussellMc
2018-04-26 02:11:17 UTC
Permalink
On 26 April 2018 at 00:49, Van Horn, David <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> The electrolyte is a strong alkaline, I witnessed a NIMH failure that
> vented boiling electrolyte and delaminated the PCB that happened to be
> sitting next to it.
> All this while the pack had been disconnected from the system for some
> hours.
> The failure was eventually traced to the manufacturer (Chinese) not using
> enough catalyst to recombine the hydrogen and oxygen in the cell.
> Probably also the vent was non-functional but we couldn't prove that from
> the remains.
>
> ​What size of cell? (AA, C, D, ...)
What mAh capacity?

As noted previously in this thread, I'd expect NO catalyst in AA above
about 2000 mAh.​

In limiting cases (such as yours) I'd expect the factors on which catalysts
quantity was based to include charge rate and duration and temperature and
"guaranteed" end of charge behaviour of the charger (partially as proxies
for amount of gas to be dealt with).

In my solar lighting AA cell charging experiences, none of the usual charge
termination methods was viable due to:
- The variability of charge rate with insolation (clouds, rain, night-comes)
- Potential for sudden complete charge termination or resumption (as above
+ people move light, a goat or children happen, ...)
- Possible range of temperatures (about freezing through very very hot
(above nominally allowed Nimh spec))
- Potential for a range of cells in use (due to both factory "illegal"
changes and post-sale customer actions),
- & Murphy

This meant that none of the usual charge termination algorithms (- delta V,
+ delta T, absolute T, time, ...) could be relied on.
Absolute terminal voltage under given conditions proved as good or better
as any alternatives BUT charge rate and cell characteristics could spread
the Vmax allowable enough that some cells may charge to well below capacity
while others may never reach Vmax and be subject to continuous and fatal
"trickle" charging.

Add to that the desire for a hardware only solution and a cost of
approaching RMB0.00.
Hence my 1.45V/cell (1.40 slightly safer) at Imax ~= C/8, with modification
for charge current and possibly temperature.
Note that far higher Imax (eg the typical C/1) requires a significantly
higher Vmax.

Some reduction of nominal maximum capacity was acceptable as a tradeoff
against more-or-less-bulletproof perfomance (main criteria being that cells
did not die early but had as much capacity as possible). The end result was
remarkably good considering the low cost and apparent simplicity. A TL431,
(2 or 3 cents afair), 2 jellybean bipolar transistors (drive signal
inversion + energy dissipation) plus a handful of resistors. I used energy
dissipation rather than panel disconnection as it was easier to deal with
(Vbattery tends to alter when charging voltage removed so ...), did not
require a lossy series switch (minor but not totally irrelevant) and was
acceptable natv the energy levels involved in small portable devices.
Temperature dissipation in switch not an issue as solar insolation is
dissipated by one path or other and Echarge << E_sun_whole-light.

Clamping current was used to modify the clamp voltage "appropriately". I
bought samples of every NimH AA cell available in NZ plus whatever samples
of OEM Chinese cells I had available and examined the EOC characteristics
to determine what Vmax was possible without "runaway" for a more than
adequate range of temperatures and charge rates. Max charge rate was
limited by available PV panel output. I used both a DIY "temperature
chamber" (in a previous lifetime a glass benchtop fan oven) and also found
that having a whole small temperature controllable room was handy. One of
the "smallest rooms in house" got to double as said hot room.

​What fun :-) :-(.
Given the task again I'd try hard to use LiFePO4 or even LiIon.



Russell
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RussellMc
2018-04-26 02:14:37 UTC
Permalink
On 26 April 2018 at 00:49, Van Horn, David <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> The electrolyte is a strong alkaline, I witnessed a NIMH failure that
> vented boiling electrolyte and delaminated the PCB that happened to be
> sitting next to it.
> All this while the pack had been disconnected from the system for some
> hours.
>

​Long (decades) ago a friend had an explosion while charging a NiCd. C size
I think. Probable vent failure.
Impressive.


R

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RussellMc
2018-04-26 02:26:35 UTC
Permalink
On 25 April 2018 at 20:40, V G <***@veegee.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 2:34 PM, Van Horn, David <
> ***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>


> > People solder directly to these cells too, and usually have no issues.
> > However talk to one of the engineers who designs these cells, and the
> > response will be something along the lines of "fine, you do that, while I
> > get behind this concrete wall..."
> >
>
> For Li-ion, it's a risky thing to do, but does the same go for NiMH in
> terms of personal safety? I can imagine it damaging the cell, but NiMH are
> known to be safe at high temperatures, that is, non-explosive.
>

​On past occasions I have carried a number of charged AA NimH cells in a
trouser pocket (for camera flash use).
I would not do so now.

On 3 occasions (if memory serves) I had them "somehow" short circuit in a
pocket and produce unbearable heat which required the most urgent removal
of the cells.
Circuit was probably made with keys and coins - a very stupid thing to
allow to happen. So? :-)

​Once was at a post church service lunch where the visiting speaker ​was
treated to the photographer suddenly starting to dance and leap and throw
his pocket contents wildly about as he removed the offending cells.

​Once was while a passenger in a car. If I'd been the driver the
consequences could have been fatal.

I'd expect cell body temperature to be able to exceed 100 C under such
loads.

When using a high capability external camera flash at an "event" where
rapid ongoing use of the flash is required, exhausted AA cells are far too
hot to handle when removed from the flash. So 70 C plus under real world
loads. For (now rare) weddings and similar I took to using good quality
Alkaline AA cells rather than NimH. Capacity of both is 'close enough to
the same' in this application, and has the advantage that the 4 hot cells
may be dropped out of the flash to "anywhere safe" when the need arises,
rather than having to ensure that they are deposited somewhere suitable for
retention and recharge.


Russell


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RussellMc
2018-04-26 02:32:33 UTC
Permalink
On 25 April 2018 at 06:03, Andrew E. Mileski <***@isoar.ca> wrote:

> On 2018-04-24 09:26, RussellMc wrote:
> >
> > Several people have suggested that NimH cells may be float charged.
> > This is not the case for most modern consumer cells - most typically Aa,
> > but also C, D etc.
>
> Typically NiMH are floated at C/5 to help reduce stress on the cells.
> They are less tolerant of overcharge than NiCd, but NiCd need regular
> discharge cycling to preserve their capacity. I also recommend floating
> NiCd at C/5 as opposed to C/10 (normal slow charging rate).
>

​If by "floated" you mean "charged until full capacity is ​obtained' then
that's acceptable.
(Floated usually means "constant voltage applied". So Floated at C/5
APPEARS to mean held at some constant voltage such that C/5 charge current
is accepted. If this is done post EOC the cell would be rapidly destroyed.)


If "floated" means - attached to the charger indefinitely post EOC, then,
NO.
As above, modern AA NimH (above about 1800 to 2000 mAh capacity) MUST not
be charged at even low rates (except in the VERY rare cases where the
manufacturer allows a limied period of "trickle charging - often at about
C/100).

NimH cells without gas recombination catalyst will be damaged / destroyed
by charging past EOC.



Russell
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Andrew E. Mileski
2018-04-24 20:02:49 UTC
Permalink
On 2018-04-23 18:02, Andrew E. Mileski wrote:
>
> There are a few million Lithium chargers available on E-Bay for about a
> dollar. Try searching for "TP4056" and "Lithium Charger Board". I seem
> to recall some have thermistor support, as well as some being
> combination boards with built-in over-discharge protection.

For what it is worth, the TP4056 chip is manufactured by:

NanJing Top Power ASIC Corp.
http://www.tp-asic.com/

Details on the TP4056 can be found at:

https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=http://www.tp-asic.com/te_product_a/2008-04-09/2236.chtml

The English datasheet:

https://dlnmh9ip6v2uc.cloudfront.net/datasheets/Prototyping/TP4056.pdf

The TP4056 appears to be an upgraded Analog Devices LTC4056 ... it is
not a 100% clone, but nearly identical (different current setting), and
requiring fewer external parts (built-in power MOSFET).

http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/405642f.pdf

~~
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