[OT] An insulation sanity check

[James Cameron]

G'day,

I'm living in a corrugated steel shed, and it's too hot in summer and
too cold in winter.

Walls are double clad zinc plated steel, with a polyester wool
insulation around steel framing. Roof is steel plated polystyrene
insulated panels, 100mm thick. Windows and doors are aluminium framed
single glazed.

Heat pumps have worked well to moderate, but the IR probes and bare
feet show the heat is mostly leaking through the floor; with four hour
lag, apparently normal for the 100mm thickness.

The floor is bare concrete, about 200 sq m. One room has carpet.

The concrete was poured onto 0.42 to 0.48mm mean-thickness steel
roofing [1], which rests on 125mm x 75mm steel bearers, separated by
about 2.2m.

Bearers are welded to steel posts of 75mm x 75mm x 1.2m each resting
on a 1 sq m concrete foundation block.

A photograph underneath is available on request; just don't want it
archived. Will reply by private mail.

Unimpeded airflow under the shed, which is 1.2m off the ground. The
air exchanges heat with the zinc plated steel under the concrete. The
profile of the steel has long troughs that act like heat sink fins.

We're thinking of adding insulation underneath. We have a product in
mind [2].

Environmental risks are; high speed wind (~60km/h), leaping male
kangaroos (about one a year), birds looking for nesting material, and
a wasp for every size hole.

Obligatory PIClist data; we have DS18B20 sensors in several rooms,
with one for the concrete and one buired 500mm into the ground
underneath the shed. Data collected once a minute by PIC 12C509,
ESP8266, and ATmega328.

Listening for your thoughts. ;-)


References:

1. KLIP-LOK CLASSIC 700, page 9 of
http://www.lysaght.com/sites/default/files/LysaghtRoofingWallingInstallationManualJul2015.pdf

2. PIRMAX HR Panel 100mm, polyisocyanurate with al foil facing,
https://reflexinsulation.com.au/products/pirmax-hr-panel/
http://reflexinsulation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Reflex-PIRMAX-HR-PANEL-Technical-Brochure.pdf

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[Justin Richards]

My folks recently installed sheets of insulation from left over cool room
panels underneath thier wooden floor stumped house.
Will ask them if they noticed an improvement.
The also experience wide swing in temp with roos, wasps and snakes. Not the
high winds however.


On 22 Feb 2018 11:14, "James Cameron" <***@laptop.org> wrote:

G'day,

I'm living in a corrugated steel shed, and it's too hot in summer and
too cold in winter.

Walls are double clad zinc plated steel, with a polyester wool
insulation around steel framing. Roof is steel plated polystyrene
insulated panels, 100mm thick. Windows and doors are aluminium framed
single glazed.

Heat pumps have worked well to moderate, but the IR probes and bare
feet show the heat is mostly leaking through the floor; with four hour
lag, apparently normal for the 100mm thickness.

The floor is bare concrete, about 200 sq m. One room has carpet.

The concrete was poured onto 0.42 to 0.48mm mean-thickness steel
roofing [1], which rests on 125mm x 75mm steel bearers, separated by
about 2.2m.

Bearers are welded to steel posts of 75mm x 75mm x 1.2m each resting
on a 1 sq m concrete foundation block.

A photograph underneath is available on request; just don't want it
archived. Will reply by private mail.

Unimpeded airflow under the shed, which is 1.2m off the ground. The
air exchanges heat with the zinc plated steel under the concrete. The
profile of the steel has long troughs that act like heat sink fins.

We're thinking of adding insulation underneath. We have a product in
mind [2].

Environmental risks are; high speed wind (~60km/h), leaping male
kangaroos (about one a year), birds looking for nesting material, and
a wasp for every size hole.

Obligatory PIClist data; we have DS18B20 sensors in several rooms,
with one for the concrete and one buired 500mm into the ground
underneath the shed. Data collected once a minute by PIC 12C509,
ESP8266, and ATmega328.

Listening for your thoughts. ;-)


References:

1. KLIP-LOK CLASSIC 700, page 9 of
http://www.lysaght.com/sites/default/files/LysaghtRoofingWallingInstallat
ionManualJul2015.pdf

2. PIRMAX HR Panel 100mm, polyisocyanurate with al foil facing,
https://reflexinsulation.com.au/products/pirmax-hr-panel/
http://reflexinsulation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Reflex-
PIRMAX-HR-PANEL-Technical-Brochure.pdf

--
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[Richard Prosser]

Cold in Winter - in a place that has wild Kangaroos ? Where on earth are
you?

Underfloor insulation is reputed * to improve things considerably here
(Chch, NZ). Part of that is due to drafts through the flooring though - not
a problem in your case.
If you have a high glass to wall ratio then double glazing would be big
help too. Or heavy curtains for winter & outside shade cloth or other cover
to prevent direct sun for summer. Make sure there are no drafts through
doors and windows - again probably not an issue due to the wasp situation.

Also, do you get a big difference in temperature between the floor &
ceiling? Would fans help to keep the air mixed top to bottom (in addition
the the heat pump fans)


* We are on a concrete slab directly on the ground and I don't have
personal experience re the underfloor.

RP

On 22 February 2018 at 20:13, Justin Richards <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> My folks recently installed sheets of insulation from left over cool room
> panels underneath thier wooden floor stumped house.
> Will ask them if they noticed an improvement.
> The also experience wide swing in temp with roos, wasps and snakes. Not the
> high winds however.
>
>
> On 22 Feb 2018 11:14, "James Cameron" <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
> G'day,
>
> I'm living in a corrugated steel shed, and it's too hot in summer and
> too cold in winter.
>
> Walls are double clad zinc plated steel, with a polyester wool
> insulation around steel framing. Roof is steel plated polystyrene
> insulated panels, 100mm thick. Windows and doors are aluminium framed
> single glazed.
>
> Heat pumps have worked well to moderate, but the IR probes and bare
> feet show the heat is mostly leaking through the floor; with four hour
> lag, apparently normal for the 100mm thickness.
>
> The floor is bare concrete, about 200 sq m. One room has carpet.
>
> The concrete was poured onto 0.42 to 0.48mm mean-thickness steel
> roofing [1], which rests on 125mm x 75mm steel bearers, separated by
> about 2.2m.
>
> Bearers are welded to steel posts of 75mm x 75mm x 1.2m each resting
> on a 1 sq m concrete foundation block.
>
> A photograph underneath is available on request; just don't want it
> archived. Will reply by private mail.
>
> Unimpeded airflow under the shed, which is 1.2m off the ground. The
> air exchanges heat with the zinc plated steel under the concrete. The
> profile of the steel has long troughs that act like heat sink fins.
>
> We're thinking of adding insulation underneath. We have a product in
> mind [2].
>
> Environmental risks are; high speed wind (~60km/h), leaping male
> kangaroos (about one a year), birds looking for nesting material, and
> a wasp for every size hole.
>
> Obligatory PIClist data; we have DS18B20 sensors in several rooms,
> with one for the concrete and one buired 500mm into the ground
> underneath the shed. Data collected once a minute by PIC 12C509,
> ESP8266, and ATmega328.
>
> Listening for your thoughts. ;-)
>
>
> References:
>
> 1. KLIP-LOK CLASSIC 700, page 9 of
> http://www.lysaght.com/sites/default/files/LysaghtRoofingWallingInstallat
> ionManualJul2015.pdf
>
> 2. PIRMAX HR Panel 100mm, polyisocyanurate with al foil facing,
> https://reflexinsulation.com.au/products/pirmax-hr-panel/
> http://reflexinsulation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Reflex-
> PIRMAX-HR-PANEL-Technical-Brochure.pdf
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[Brent Brown]

Weird sounding construction to me, but probably perfectly normal somewhere in the
Australian outback~!

A problem I've heard of, specifically with retro-fitted underfloor insulation, is
condensation in summer. Air-con indoors now makes floor colder than it used to get
without insulation, gaps in insulation allow warm humid outside air to meet cold floor
in odd places under the house, air temp drops below dew point, water comes out of
it. Water gets trapped behind insulation = mold, rot, corrosion, etc.

Could be humidity may not be a problem at all where you are. Local
builders/architects might advise any tips and tricks with the materials you have in
mind.

On 22 Feb 2018 at 14:13, James Cameron wrote:

> G'day,
>
> I'm living in a corrugated steel shed, and it's too hot in summer and
> too cold in winter.
>
> Walls are double clad zinc plated steel, with a polyester wool
> insulation around steel framing. Roof is steel plated polystyrene
> insulated panels, 100mm thick. Windows and doors are aluminium framed
> single glazed.
>
> Heat pumps have worked well to moderate, but the IR probes and bare
> feet show the heat is mostly leaking through the floor; with four hour
> lag, apparently normal for the 100mm thickness.
>
> The floor is bare concrete, about 200 sq m. One room has carpet.
>
> The concrete was poured onto 0.42 to 0.48mm mean-thickness steel
> roofing [1], which rests on 125mm x 75mm steel bearers, separated by
> about 2.2m.
>
> Bearers are welded to steel posts of 75mm x 75mm x 1.2m each resting
> on a 1 sq m concrete foundation block.
>
> A photograph underneath is available on request; just don't want it
> archived. Will reply by private mail.
>
> Unimpeded airflow under the shed, which is 1.2m off the ground. The
> air exchanges heat with the zinc plated steel under the concrete. The
> profile of the steel has long troughs that act like heat sink fins.
>
> We're thinking of adding insulation underneath. We have a product in
> mind [2].
>
> Environmental risks are; high speed wind (~60km/h), leaping male
> kangaroos (about one a year), birds looking for nesting material, and
> a wasp for every size hole.
>
> Obligatory PIClist data; we have DS18B20 sensors in several rooms,
> with one for the concrete and one buired 500mm into the ground
> underneath the shed. Data collected once a minute by PIC 12C509,
> ESP8266, and ATmega328.
>
> Listening for your thoughts. ;-)
>
>
> References:
>
> 1. KLIP-LOK CLASSIC 700, page 9 of
> http://www.lysaght.com/sites/default/files/LysaghtRoofingWallingInstallationManualJul2015.pdf
>
> 2. PIRMAX HR Panel 100mm, polyisocyanurate with al foil facing,
> https://reflexinsulation.com.au/products/pirmax-hr-panel/
> http://reflexinsulation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Reflex-PIRMAX-HR-PANEL-Technical-Brochure.pdf
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist


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[RussellMc]

Off the cuff back of brain calculations and minimal practical experience
1st thoughts are that:

Polystyrene slab insulation designed for underfloor post construction
insertion (or almost any polystyrene that will fit) should be able to
provide whatever insulation level that calculations and available $ allow.
Your cited PIRMAX looks as good as any (better than most). Presumably
you've chosen it on substantially more than just $ per thermal
effectiveness.

Brochure here with R values
http://reflexinsulation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/Reflex-PIRMAX-HR-PANEL-Technical-Brochure.pdf
Even the 20 mm , R = 1 sounds as though it would require heating/cooling
loads that are useful.
[ 0.02 W/m/K. 20 mm = 1/50 m so energy flow = 0.02 x 50 W/k/s/m^2. = 1
Watt/m^2/K
200 m^2 = 200 Watts/K
2 kW / 10 K improvement.
Increase thickness to improve linearly.
E&OE.

Photos would be useful and interesting but there should be some means of
fixing that addresses the stated hazards. (I didn't see the 100 year
outback flood in there).

Drainage for condensation should be able to be addressed by design of upper
surface profile and weep holes.
(Or maybe just weep holes).



Russell
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[James Cameron]

Justin, thanks.

Richard, thanks.

Location; nearby village Tooraweenah 31°26′20″S 148°54′40″E.

Each morning in a 360° view one might count between 4 and 40 wallabies
or kangaroos grazing. Easy to deal with most of the time, but crazed
males driven by hormones and pheremones can persist in following a
female for hours or kilometers, bumping into things along the way.
Chased local females run underneath our house with head down, but a
male tends to run into the metalwork. Navigation skills a bit limited
in their rut. Plenty of other places to do it, so we usually only get
one or two each year.

When 42°C outside in the shade, and heat pumps set to 18°C with full
speed fan, at about 4pm the floor is at 32°C, the inside ceiling is at
28°C, the air is at 26°C. So heat is streaming off the floor, mixing
in the air, and being pumped out. Roof is at 65°C to 75°C depending
on sun angle. Measurements by IR and DS18B20.

Winter the reverse, but less impact because the layering is more
severe.

Brent, thanks.

Construction was by a self-builder with philosophical goal of minimal
ground disturbance and a firm belief in the survivability of ambient
temperatures.

Environment is typically very low humidity, around 20 % RH.

We'll have a think about response to condensation; plan to fit the
panels on low humidity days and seal the gap with silicone caulk. The
10m long 30mm wide troughs in the steel profile will be sealed at each
end.

Russell, thanks.

Calculation method interesting. Being able to estimate the heat pump
load posed by different R values is probably most helpful.

We could experiment; we have a spare chest freezer from which we can
remove the lid, set upside down on the floor, seal around with tape,
and use for thermal transfer experiments. I'd put a bucket of water
inside with a fish tank immersion heater.

Or we could just punt with a larger than needed R value.

Ignorance drives us to pick the largest.

On the other hand, thicker panels have more mass, so fixing method
more important.

Agent describes kinetic nails through a fastener of 35mm diameter,
which could be a lot of tooling for us. Adhesives might work, but
would have to account for non-flat surface, aluminium foil layer,
polyisocyanurate core, and mass.

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[a***@stfc.ac.uk]

>2. PIRMAX HR Panel 100mm, polyisocyanurate with al foil facing,
> https://reflexinsulation.com.au/products/pirmax-hr-panel/

I would be very hesitant to use this insulation, as it is what was used in the external cladding that could fire in the recent tower block fire in London.



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[Bob Blick]

That was vertical mounting. Under a floor it should be a lot safer.

Friendly regards, Bob
________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of alan.b.pearce
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 1:17 PM
To: ***@mit.edu
Subject: RE: [OT] An insulation sanity check

>2. PIRMAX HR Panel 100mm, polyisocyanurate with al foil facing,
> https://reflexinsulation.com.au/products/pirmax-hr-panel/

I would be very hesitant to use this insulation, as it is what was used in the external cladding that could fire in the recent tower block fire in London.

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[Isaac M. Bavaresco]

It seems that aerogel is available in the form of tiles and flexible
blankets for the purpose of building insulation. The prices I found are
still way too expensive though.

Cheers,

Isaac



Em 24/02/2018 18:46, Bob Blick escreveu:
> That was vertical mounting. Under a floor it should be a lot safer.
>
> Friendly regards, Bob
> ________________________________________
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of alan.b.pearce
> Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2018 1:17 PM
> To: ***@mit.edu
> Subject: RE: [OT] An insulation sanity check
>
>> 2. PIRMAX HR Panel 100mm, polyisocyanurate with al foil facing,
>> https://reflexinsulation.com.au/products/pirmax-hr-panel/
> I would be very hesitant to use this insulation, as it is what was used in the external cladding that could fire in the recent tower block fire in London.
>

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[RussellMc]

On 25 February 2018 at 10:17, <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:

> >2. PIRMAX HR Panel 100mm, polyisocyanurate with al foil facing,
> > https://reflexinsulation.com.au/products/pirmax-hr-panel/
>
> I would be very hesitant to use this insulation, as it is what was used in
> the external cladding that could fire in the recent tower block fire in
> London.
>
> ​Can you provide any links to what was used on the building that burned.
It mat well be of the type you say.

Polystyrene is very widely used as an underfloor insulation here - with and
without foil.


Russell​


>
>
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