Discussion:
[EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere
James Cameron
2017-04-06 11:24:57 UTC
Permalink
I'm looking at a Yamaha Electone FS-20 organ from 1983.

Symptom is a loud crackling noise, like lightning on an AM receiver,
which comes and goes over a time period of ten minutes. It is
thermally related; if you turn the organ off for a few minutes, then
on, it takes a few minutes before it starts to happen. Once the
crackling starts, moving the tuning dial may stop it, or may make it
worse.

I've bought a copy of the service manual with schematics.

The design is a custom processor, ROMs, and a pair of four channel
DACs; huge custom packages, then the usual analog chain driving big
speakers.

Oscilloscope shows the noise is emitted by the DAC, and is a
square-ish wave; curved slightly by low pass filter after DAC.

Oscilloscope shows +15V, -15V, and +5V supplies to the main board are
reasonably clean, with only 10mV ripple, and they don't vary between
the perfect and symptomatic operating modes.

The front panel tuning dial (85k) emits a control voltage for a pitch
control clock oscillator (589.2 kHz), which drives a phase comparator,
to vary a master clock oscillator from which 4.7 MHz, 2.4 MHz, and 1.2
MHz clocks are derived. The CPU, front panel shift registers, bus
logic, and DAC are clocked from these sources; so the tuning affects
everything. Oscillators are made from discrete components, no
crystals present, using variable inductor cans.

Oscilloscope shows the 2.4 MHz and 1.2 MHz clocks are clean, and at the
correct frequencies, but I've not been able to access the 4.7 MHz
clock easily yet; it's on a card edge protected by steel yet to be
disassembled.

Someone before me has applied a spray oil over everything inside. The
oil has mostly evaporated from flat surfaces, but is discovered
between metal plates, under screws, and likely under components on the
PCBs. The whole organ stinks of it, especially the wood.

What excitement can this type of oil do to 1983 vintage electronics?

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Van Horn, David
2017-04-07 15:43:49 UTC
Permalink
Ah, WD-40. Satan in a can.

I don't know how you'd do it exactly, but a thorough cleaning is in order.
DeOxit is what I use for small jobs, and what I use where most people think WD-40 should be used, but it would be prohibitively expensive for a job that size.


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Sean Breheny
2017-04-07 15:54:01 UTC
Permalink
I would try anhydrous isopropanol to rinse off wd40. Do it in a few test
spots first because there are a few plastics which can be crazed by ipa
(acrylic is the only one I know off-hand) I believe that the main solvent
used in wd40 is n-hexane (also called just hexane - the lower case n stands
for normal as opposed to the several isohexanes). You can definitely get
hexane cheaply in quantity but I am not so sure about compatibility with
plastics.
On Apr 7, 2017 11:44 AM, "Van Horn, David" <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> Ah, WD-40. Satan in a can.
>
> I don't know how you'd do it exactly, but a thorough cleaning is in order.
> DeOxit is what I use for small jobs, and what I use where most people
> think WD-40 should be used, but it would be prohibitively expensive for a
> job that size.
>
>
> --
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>
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Allen Mulvey
2017-04-07 16:07:34 UTC
Permalink
Use caution with WD-40. It is highly flammable. Never spray
it on anything that is powered up.

Allen

> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-
> ***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Sean Breheny
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 11:54 AM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7
> everywhere
>
> I would try anhydrous isopropanol to rinse off wd40. Do it
in
> a few test
> spots first because there are a few plastics which can be
> crazed by ipa
> (acrylic is the only one I know off-hand) I believe that
the
> main solvent
> used in wd40 is n-hexane (also called just hexane - the
lower
> case n stands
> for normal as opposed to the several isohexanes). You can
> definitely get
> hexane cheaply in quantity but I am not so sure about
> compatibility with
> plastics.
> On Apr 7, 2017 11:44 AM, "Van Horn, David" <
> ***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> > Ah, WD-40. Satan in a can.
> >
> > I don't know how you'd do it exactly, but a thorough
> cleaning is in order.
> > DeOxit is what I use for small jobs, and what I use
where
> most people
> > think WD-40 should be used, but it would be
prohibitively
> expensive for a
> > job that size.
> >
> >
> > --
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> archive
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> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
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Van Horn, David
2017-04-07 17:06:13 UTC
Permalink
That would get it over more quickly, but probably with collateral damage.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Allen Mulvey
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 10:08 AM
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere

Use caution with WD-40. It is highly flammable. Never spray it on anything that is powered up.

Allen


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Clint Jay
2017-04-07 17:44:59 UTC
Permalink
This may cause hoots of derision but I've cleaned many boards with
toothbrushes, stiff paintbrushes and soap and water.

Followed (while wet) with a thorough wash down with isopropyl alcohol, its
been very successful.

I've also used my dishwasher when a board has been *really* bad and again
washed down with isopropyl afterwards

On 7 Apr 2017 6:06 pm, "Van Horn, David" <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> That would get it over more quickly, but probably with collateral damage.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf
> Of Allen Mulvey
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 10:08 AM
> To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
> Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere
>
> Use caution with WD-40. It is highly flammable. Never spray it on anything
> that is powered up.
>
> Allen
>
>
> --
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Van Horn, David
2017-04-07 18:20:12 UTC
Permalink
Well.. As long as the rinse is good..

That article which I've mentioned on here a couple of times, "Low Voltage, the Incompetent Ignition Source" bears reading re trapped contaminants.
They cite a case where a 2032 lithium cell on a remote board caused a flame.



-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Clint Jay
Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 11:45 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere

This may cause hoots of derision but I've cleaned many boards with toothbrushes, stiff paintbrushes and soap and water.

Followed (while wet) with a thorough wash down with isopropyl alcohol, its been very successful.

I've also used my dishwasher when a board has been *really* bad and again washed down with isopropyl afterwards

On 7 Apr 2017 6:06 pm, "Van Horn, David" < ***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> That would get it over more quickly, but probably with collateral damage.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On
> Behalf Of Allen Mulvey
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 10:08 AM
> To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
> Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere
>
> Use caution with WD-40. It is highly flammable. Never spray it on
> anything that is powered up.
>
> Allen
>
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
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RussellMc
2017-04-07 23:16:14 UTC
Permalink
On 8 April 2017 at 07:20, Van Horn, David <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> That article which I've mentioned on here a couple of times, "Low Voltage,
> the Incompetent Ignition Source" bears reading re trapped contaminants.
> They cite a case where a 2032 lithium cell on a remote board caused a
> flame.
>
> ​Download here.
ID needed.
Download seems benign.

Low Voltage, the Incompetent Ignition Source – Dispelling the Myth


http://foresiteinc.hs-sites.com/low-voltage-the-incompetent-ignition-source?


Thesis 2015 166 pages

The Recognition of Fires Originatingfrom Photovoltaic (PV) Solar
Systems.
<https://kar.kent.ac.uk/54688/1/116The%20Recognition%20of%20Fires%20Originating%20from%20Photovoltaic%20(PV)%20Solar%20Systems.pdf>
Ref 1.


Conference paper 2014. 11 pages

ELECTRICAL IGNITION DEMYSTIFIED
<http://www.thewaylabs.com/pubs-paper/Frontiers/OSU14-Myths%20electrical%20ignition%20141013.pdf%20%20ELECTRICAL%20IGNITION%20DEMYSTIFIED>
Ref 2



Russell

_______________
<http://www.thewaylabs.com/pubs-paper/Frontiers/OSU14-Myths%20electrical%20ignition%20141013.pdf
ELECTRICAL IGNITION DEMYSTIFIED>
<http://www.thewaylabs.com/pubs-paper/Frontiers/OSU14-Myths%20electrical%20ignition%20141013.pdf
ELECTRICAL IGNITION DEMYSTIFIED>


Ref 1
https://kar.kent.ac.uk/54688/1/116The%20Recognition%20of%20Fires%20Originating%20from%20Photovoltaic%20(PV)%20Solar%20Systems.pdf

ref2
http://www.thewaylabs.com/pubs-paper/Frontiers/OSU14-Myths%20electrical%20ignition%20141013.pdf
ELECTRICAL IGNITION DEMYSTIFIED​
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James Cameron
2017-04-08 02:54:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, Apr 08, 2017 at 12:16:14PM +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> The Recognition of Fires Originatingfrom Photovoltaic (PV) Solar
> Systems.

Interesting, thanks.

Reminds me of an investigation I did into an OLPC XO laptop with a
charred battery connector. I proved from testing that the charred
plastic separating the contacts was conductive, and I had theorised
there was a layer of redeposited metal from an arc.

The paper mentions a semiconductor effect; "As volatile compounds
evolve from hydrocarbon based insulators, such as PVC, remaining
materials have been seen to change their conducting properties ..."

Makes more sense now.

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Sean Breheny
2017-04-08 05:22:39 UTC
Permalink
Some plastics used in electronics can carbonize into a conductive material.
I've seen it happen in automotive blade fuses which have been run at 48V.
I've also seen it in connectors made from liquid-crystal polymers (related
to but not the same as the substance in LCDs). Some backplane blind-mate
connectors are made from this plastic because it has very high strength and
temperature resistance. In the experiments I did, alcohol or butane-fueled
fire wasn't hot enough to produce conductive carbon. An arc was required,
but I don't think the mechanism was deposition of metal because the result
was a powder which was still conductive even if "mixed" around - the
surface didn't have to be undisturbed to preserve conductivity as you would
expect if the conductive path were confined to a thin surface layer.

On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 10:54 PM, James Cameron <***@laptop.org> wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 08, 2017 at 12:16:14PM +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> > The Recognition of Fires Originatingfrom Photovoltaic (PV) Solar
> > Systems.
>
> Interesting, thanks.
>
> Reminds me of an investigation I did into an OLPC XO laptop with a
> charred battery connector. I proved from testing that the charred
> plastic separating the contacts was conductive, and I had theorised
> there was a layer of redeposited metal from an arc.
>
> The paper mentions a semiconductor effect; "As volatile compounds
> evolve from hydrocarbon based insulators, such as PVC, remaining
> materials have been seen to change their conducting properties ..."
>
> Makes more sense now.
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> --
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> View/change your membership options at
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Clint Jay
2017-04-08 11:34:19 UTC
Permalink
I wonder if it was possible to create an ionised path in the flame of an
alcohol or butane fire... (Just idle curiosity but could be an interesting
experiment)

On 8 Apr 2017 6:23 am, "Sean Breheny" <***@cornell.edu> wrote:

> Some plastics used in electronics can carbonize into a conductive material.
> I've seen it happen in automotive blade fuses which have been run at 48V.
> I've also seen it in connectors made from liquid-crystal polymers (related
> to but not the same as the substance in LCDs). Some backplane blind-mate
> connectors are made from this plastic because it has very high strength and
> temperature resistance. In the experiments I did, alcohol or butane-fueled
> fire wasn't hot enough to produce conductive carbon. An arc was required,
> but I don't think the mechanism was deposition of metal because the result
> was a powder which was still conductive even if "mixed" around - the
> surface didn't have to be undisturbed to preserve conductivity as you would
> expect if the conductive path were confined to a thin surface layer.
>
> On Fri, Apr 7, 2017 at 10:54 PM, James Cameron <***@laptop.org> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Apr 08, 2017 at 12:16:14PM +1300, RussellMc wrote:
> > > The Recognition of Fires Originatingfrom Photovoltaic (PV) Solar
> > > Systems.
> >
> > Interesting, thanks.
> >
> > Reminds me of an investigation I did into an OLPC XO laptop with a
> > charred battery connector. I proved from testing that the charred
> > plastic separating the contacts was conductive, and I had theorised
> > there was a layer of redeposited metal from an arc.
> >
> > The paper mentions a semiconductor effect; "As volatile compounds
> > evolve from hydrocarbon based insulators, such as PVC, remaining
> > materials have been seen to change their conducting properties ..."
> >
> > Makes more sense now.
> >
> > --
> > James Cameron
> > http://quozl.netrek.org/
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
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David C Brown
2017-04-08 18:32:31 UTC
Permalink
I am always astonished that fires can break out almost spontaneously.

I frequently stack up layers of a) very dry crumpled newspaper b) small
equally dry sticks of softwood - usually spruce but sometimes scoots pine
c) solid hydrocarbon in the form of Welsh or Yorkshire coal. I ensure
that there is a good path for air to reach under the stack and then use
several phosphorus lucifers to ignite the paper. Fifty percent of the time
no major conflagration occurs :-)


__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 7 April 2017 at 19:20, Van Horn, David <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> Well.. As long as the rinse is good..
>
> That article which I've mentioned on here a couple of times, "Low Voltage,
> the Incompetent Ignition Source" bears reading re trapped contaminants.
> They cite a case where a 2032 lithium cell on a remote board caused a
> flame.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf
> Of Clint Jay
> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 11:45 AM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
> Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere
>
> This may cause hoots of derision but I've cleaned many boards with
> toothbrushes, stiff paintbrushes and soap and water.
>
> Followed (while wet) with a thorough wash down with isopropyl alcohol, its
> been very successful.
>
> I've also used my dishwasher when a board has been *really* bad and again
> washed down with isopropyl afterwards
>
> On 7 Apr 2017 6:06 pm, "Van Horn, David" < david.vanhorn@
> backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > That would get it over more quickly, but probably with collateral damage.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On
> > Behalf Of Allen Mulvey
> > Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 10:08 AM
> > To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
> > Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere
> >
> > Use caution with WD-40. It is highly flammable. Never spray it on
> > anything that is powered up.
> >
> > Allen
> >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
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John Gardner
2017-04-10 23:43:59 UTC
Permalink
I ran a garage for many years. Early on, I subscribed to a service

which delivered clean rags on a weekly basis. The drill was that

new rags were delivered on a weekly basis, & used rags picked up.

(Just in case that's not clear). My guys piled up the rags to be picked

up the night before the morning pickup, near the garage entrance.

A few years in, I showed up at work 3 hours early on rag day to deal

with the gov't paperwork needed to avoid gaol...

To discover a smoldering rag fire in the pile near the interior front of

my premises, a 100-year-old wooden warehouse, originally...

Mene Tekel Upharsin...







On 4/8/17, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am always astonished that fires can break out almost spontaneously.
>
> I frequently stack up layers of a) very dry crumpled newspaper b) small
> equally dry sticks of softwood - usually spruce but sometimes scoots pine
> c) solid hydrocarbon in the form of Welsh or Yorkshire coal. I ensure
> that there is a good path for air to reach under the stack and then use
> several phosphorus lucifers to ignite the paper. Fifty percent of the time
> no major conflagration occurs :-)
>
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
> On 7 April 2017 at 19:20, Van Horn, David <
> ***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Well.. As long as the rinse is good..
>>
>> That article which I've mentioned on here a couple of times, "Low
>> Voltage,
>> the Incompetent Ignition Source" bears reading re trapped contaminants.
>> They cite a case where a 2032 lithium cell on a remote board caused a
>> flame.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf
>> Of Clint Jay
>> Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 11:45 AM
>> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
>> Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere
>>
>> This may cause hoots of derision but I've cleaned many boards with
>> toothbrushes, stiff paintbrushes and soap and water.
>>
>> Followed (while wet) with a thorough wash down with isopropyl alcohol,
>> its
>> been very successful.
>>
>> I've also used my dishwasher when a board has been *really* bad and again
>> washed down with isopropyl afterwards
>>
>> On 7 Apr 2017 6:06 pm, "Van Horn, David" < david.vanhorn@
>> backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> > That would get it over more quickly, but probably with collateral
>> > damage.
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On
>> > Behalf Of Allen Mulvey
>> > Sent: Friday, April 7, 2017 10:08 AM
>> > To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
>> > Subject: RE: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere
>> >
>> > Use caution with WD-40. It is highly flammable. Never spray it on
>> > anything that is powered up.
>> >
>> > Allen
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> > View/change your membership options at
>> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>> >
>> --
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>> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
>> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>> --
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RussellMc
2017-04-11 01:54:43 UTC
Permalink
On 11 April 2017 at 12:43, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> > ​... ​
> My guys piled up the rags to be picked
> ​ ​
> up the night before the morning pickup,
>
> ​... To discover a smoldering rag fire in the pile near the interior
front of my premises, ...

> ​
>
> "Long ago" I spilled maybe 1cc of Loctite 406 - a more capable than most
grade of cyanoacrylate adhesive - on a work bench.
I wiped it up with a near to hand well-used rag. Heat, smoke, crackling,
... . Out the door with it - rapidly. I don't recall if it got as far as
producing flames before I stamped it out, but it was well on the way to
doing so.At the time I thought it was the contaminants on the rag that
reacted, but others have since opined that it may have been the rag itself
that reacted.

> ​Mene Tekel Upharsin...

On balance, yes.




Russell




>
>
>
>
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Bob Blick
2017-04-11 02:30:11 UTC
Permalink
But think where we'd be without fire. Still chewing on tough meat, should we be so lucky!

Friendly regards,

BB


________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of RussellMc
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2017 6:54 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere

On 11 April 2017 at 12:43, John Gardner wrote:

> > ​... ​
> My guys piled up the rags to be picked
> ​ ​
> up the night before the morning pickup,
>
> ​... To discover a smoldering rag fire in the pile near the interior
front of my premises, ...

> ​
>
> "Long ago" I spilled maybe 1cc of Loctite 406 - a more capable than most
grade of cyanoacrylate adhesive - on a work bench.
I wiped it up with a near to hand well-used rag. Heat, smoke, crackling,
... . Out the door with it - rapidly. I don't recall if it got as far as
producing flames before I stamped it out, but it was well on the way to
doing so.At the time I thought it was the contaminants on the rag that
reacted, but others have since opined that it may have been the rag itself
that reacted.

> ​Mene Tekel Upharsin...

On balance, yes.




Russell


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a***@stfc.ac.uk
2017-04-11 08:47:07 UTC
Permalink
> A few years in, I showed up at work 3 hours early on rag day to deal
>
> with the gov't paperwork needed to avoid gaol...
>
> To discover a smoldering rag fire in the pile near the interior front of
>
> my premises, a 100-year-old wooden warehouse, originally...

Well, linseed oil, as used in oil based paints is well known for spontaneous combustion where cleaning rags have been left in a heap. There is apparently some chemical reaction between the cloth and the oil that produces an exothermic reaction, and if the rags are left bundled the heat is enough to ignite them. I guess it is a possibility that other oils will do the same thing.

>
> Mene Tekel Upharsin...
>

Well, %deity% saw that you weren't found wanting this time.



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Van Horn, David
2017-04-07 16:08:32 UTC
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When I bought my 3D printer, it had a slight squeak. The guy selling it cheerfully volunteered to fix it with some WD-40, and I just about had to fight him off to prevent him from spraying that gunk on my nice new printer.

Just a touch of sewing machine oil at the right spot fixed it.

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James Cameron
2017-04-08 00:02:26 UTC
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Thanks for the replies, I'll plan on cleaning the DAC board.

Since my post, progress has been;

- removed the DAC board from the three board card cage, and inspected
the board; the spray oil is along one edge, about an inch (10%) of
the board width; which suggests the attacker didn't try to squirt
directly into the cooling holes of the card cage,

- isolated the noise source to the DAC board; by disconnecting
the analog outputs on their way to the mixer board; which excludes
possibility of the mixer feeding back a noise signal,

- checked again that there's no change in the main clocks or power
supply before and during the noise,

- captured the noise signature on oscilloscope; different channels of
the DAC show the noise at different times; minutes apart,

- applied a freezer spray to either PSU or DAC; doesn't seem to do
anything, but plan to give it another go; while in the card cage it
is almost impossible to address individual components.

I'm also thinking of soldering a few diagnostic leads to the DAC
packages themselves to see if they are rendering bad samples or
generating the noise locally.

They are packages about three inches by two inches, with a 0.1" pitch
SIL pinout.

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James Cameron
2017-04-09 12:02:21 UTC
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After cleaning the DAC board, the noise went away, and has been gone
for six hours. Or maybe it was the phase of the moon. ;-)

Process was plentiful rainwater, tiny amount of detergent, toothbrush,
followed by a spray of isopropyl alcohol, and three hours drying in
sunlight on a concrete slab at 33°C ambient with 30 knot winds at 15%
RH. Ouch.

Some of the green PCB lacquer was discoloured by the isopropyl alcohol.

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s***@agilent.com
2017-04-09 22:34:29 UTC
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Hi James -
While you have this level of disassembly, what do the electro caps look like. If this is typical of that era, there are likely low value electro's used as inter-stage coupling. I usually replace these as a matter of course in gear this old.

Stephen



-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of James Cameron
Sent: Sunday, 9 April 2017 10:02 PM
To: ***@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [EE] Servicing an organ, WD-40 or RP7 everywhere

After cleaning the DAC board, the noise went away, and has been gone for six hours. Or maybe it was the phase of the moon. ;-)

Process was plentiful rainwater, tiny amount of detergent, toothbrush, followed by a spray of isopropyl alcohol, and three hours drying in sunlight on a concrete slab at 33°C ambient with 30 knot winds at 15% RH. Ouch.

Some of the green PCB lacquer was discoloured by the isopropyl alcohol.

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James Cameron
2017-04-10 00:03:06 UTC
Permalink
Thanks Stephen.

Yes, some electrolytic caps, but most low value caps are polyester or
tantalum. The electrolytics showed no sign of bulge or leaks. Didn't
get into testing each one.

Now that the problem is gone, diagnosis opportunites have gone too. ;-(

With software I'd just use git to rollback to the broken version, but
this hardware stuff is hard. ;-)

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a***@stfc.ac.uk
2017-04-10 08:19:45 UTC
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> Now that the problem is gone, diagnosis opportunites have gone too. ;-(
>
> With software I'd just use git to rollback to the broken version, but this
> hardware stuff is hard. ;-)

There is a reason it's called 'hardware' ... :)



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Van Horn, David
2017-04-10 13:38:22 UTC
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A lesson learned in servicing hundreds of amplifiers for Muzak: Change all the electrolytics.
Number of service calls dropped precipitously.
Between that little trick and the application of Cramolin (Deoxit) to the phone systems that we maintained, when I left that job, it was like the proverbial Maytag repairman.


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David C Brown
2017-04-10 14:32:15 UTC
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Unsurprisingly that is the standard fix for a faulty UKsatellite receiver -
change four electrolytics on the PSU board. Ten quid cash,guv.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 10 April 2017 at 14:38, Van Horn, David <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

> A lesson learned in servicing hundreds of amplifiers for Muzak: Change
> all the electrolytics.
> Number of service calls dropped precipitously.
> Between that little trick and the application of Cramolin (Deoxit) to the
> phone systems that we maintained, when I left that job, it was like the
> proverbial Maytag repairman.
>
>
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James Cameron
2018-12-02 06:38:13 UTC
Permalink
Groan. The DAC noise came back today.

Everyone was looking at me. I just got out of there quick. ;-)

On Sun, Apr 09, 2017 at 10:02:21PM +1000, James Cameron wrote:
> After cleaning the DAC board, the noise went away, and has been gone
> for six hours. Or maybe it was the phase of the moon. ;-)
>
> Process was plentiful rainwater, tiny amount of detergent, toothbrush,
> followed by a spray of isopropyl alcohol, and three hours drying in
> sunlight on a concrete slab at 33°C ambient with 30 knot winds at 15%
> RH. Ouch.
>
> Some of the green PCB lacquer was discoloured by the isopropyl alcohol.
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/

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Dave Lagzdin
2017-04-10 13:57:49 UTC
Permalink
Funny you mention this. The inlaws had a similar vintage organ.
They are known for developing oxidation on the contacts apparently.
Yes, the store's "repairman" advocated WD40 on the contacts as the long
term fix? :o


On 6 April 2017 at 07:24, James Cameron <***@laptop.org> wrote:

> I'm looking at a Yamaha Electone FS-20 organ from 1983.
>
> ....snip
>
> What excitement can this type of oil do to 1983 vintage electronics?
>
> --
> James Cameron
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James Cameron
2017-04-10 21:22:38 UTC
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Interesting. That's certainly a reasonable explanation, if this
practice was widespread.

The upper face of the card cage has peripheral connections; from front
panel and keyboard, from tuning knob, and audio output to mixer. The
connectors have a plastic body with retention, and the contacts are
tin coloured.

Conflict of interest for an in-store repair expert; but good business
sense, they get to sell another organ. ;-)

On Mon, Apr 10, 2017 at 09:57:49AM -0400, Dave Lagzdin wrote:
> Funny you mention this. The inlaws had a similar vintage organ.
> They are known for developing oxidation on the contacts apparently.
> Yes, the store's "repairman" advocated WD40 on the contacts as the
> long term fix? :o

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