[EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

[RussellMc]

Comments on this article are invited.
I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.

In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried daily
and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
attempts to copy the unlock codes.
(* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil


Russell

________________________

Cited experts include:

> Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,

> Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of the
Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets and
missile defense systems.
... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a net
rather than a wall." ...
He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already working
with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on Porsche,
Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other clients
and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.

Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small tin
can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum
foil will do the job."

> Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who knows
anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices safe
fob storage.

> Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems Security
in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their
credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.

> Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
paranoid, experts say.

> Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive Information
Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity strategies.
"Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage of
design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I have often considered this.

I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday shield, the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to stop a GPS receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough. Has the added advantage you can still identify the correct button to push to try and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.



-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of RussellMc
Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

Comments on this article are invited.
I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.

In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried daily and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
attempts to copy the unlock codes.
(* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )

https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil


Russell

________________________

Cited experts include:

> Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,

> Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
> the
Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets and missile defense systems.
... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a net rather than a wall." ...
He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already working with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other clients and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.

Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small tin can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum foil will do the job."

> Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who knows
anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices safe fob storage.

> Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> Security
in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.

> Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
paranoid, experts say.

> Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> Information
Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity strategies.
"Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage of design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
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[David C Brown]

I always keep my car keys under my tin foil hat :-)

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I have
> often considered this.
>
> I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday shield,
> the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to stop a GPS
> receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough. Has the
> added advantage you can still identify the correct button to push to try
> and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> RussellMc
> Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
> Comments on this article are invited.
> I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
> withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
>
> In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried daily
> and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
>
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
>
>
> Russell
>
> ________________________
>
> Cited experts include:
>
> > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
>
> > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
> > the
> Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets and
> missile defense systems.
> ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a net
> rather than a wall." ...
> He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already working
> with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on Porsche,
> Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other clients
> and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
>
> Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small tin
> can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum
> foil will do the job."
>
> > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who knows
> anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices safe
> fob storage.
>
> > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> > Security
> in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their
> credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.
>
> > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> paranoid, experts say.
>
> > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> > Information
> Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity strategies.
> "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage of
> design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[Clint Jay]

I've a card holster that does a good job of stopping my RFID bank cards
(tested and proven by a complete failure to pay for things with NFC) so I'm
curious as to the mechanism and reasoning behind the recommendation to wrap
them in tin foil?

On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I have
> often considered this.
>
> I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday shield,
> the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to stop a GPS
> receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough. Has the
> added advantage you can still identify the correct button to push to try
> and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> RussellMc
> Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
> Comments on this article are invited.
> I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
> withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
>
> In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried daily
> and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
>
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
>
>
> Russell
>
> ________________________
>
> Cited experts include:
>
> > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
>
> > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
> > the
> Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets and
> missile defense systems.
> ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a net
> rather than a wall." ...
> He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already working
> with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on Porsche,
> Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other clients
> and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
>
> Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small tin
> can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum
> foil will do the job."
>
> > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who knows
> anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices safe
> fob storage.
>
> > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> > Security
> in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their
> credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.
>
> > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> paranoid, experts say.
>
> > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> > Information
> Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity strategies.
> "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage of
> design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>



--
Clint. M0UAW IO83

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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[John Gardner]

Off the top of my (tinfoil-covered) head - Sooner or later, you'll use

the key/card, no? Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...

...


On 7/9/18, Clint Jay <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I've a card holster that does a good job of stopping my RFID bank cards
> (tested and proven by a complete failure to pay for things with NFC) so I'm
> curious as to the mechanism and reasoning behind the recommendation to wrap
> them in tin foil?
>
> On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I have
>> often considered this.
>>
>> I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday shield,
>> the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to stop a GPS
>> receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough. Has the
>> added advantage you can still identify the correct button to push to try
>> and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
>> RussellMc
>> Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
>> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
>> Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>>
>> Comments on this article are invited.
>> I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
>> withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
>>
>> In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
>> recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried
>> daily
>> and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
>> The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
>> attempts to copy the unlock codes.
>> (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
>>
>> https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
>> might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
>>
>>
>> Russell
>>
>> ________________________
>>
>> Cited experts include:
>>
>> > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
>> Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
>>
>> > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
>> > the
>> Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets
>> and
>> missile defense systems.
>> ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a
>> net
>> rather than a wall." ...
>> He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already working
>> with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on
>> Porsche,
>> Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other clients
>> and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
>>
>> Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small tin
>> can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum
>> foil will do the job."
>>
>> > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who knows
>> anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices safe
>> fob storage.
>>
>> > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
>> > Security
>> in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their
>> credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.
>>
>> > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
>> paranoid, experts say.
>>
>> > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
>> > Information
>> Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity
>> strategies.
>> "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage of
>> design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
>> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Clint. M0UAW IO83
>
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[Clint Jay]

Of course but if I lose sight of my cards/keys then no tinfoil wrapper is
going to protect them, similarly if the window of opportunity is as small
as the time taken to pay for something or open my car then there's no
protection.


I can see thyat it would be possible to clone a card while walking around
in public, hence the RFID blocker in my wallet.

@Jim, yes, but a lot of keys operate the immobiliser in the car with a
small RFID chip (not the transmitter which is only used to operate the door
locks) which is energised and read by a coil in close proximity to the
ignition switch so copying that chip could net you a nice new car.

On 9 July 2018 at 13:41, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Off the top of my (tinfoil-covered) head - Sooner or later, you'll use
>
> the key/card, no? Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain...
>
> ...
>
>
> On 7/9/18, Clint Jay <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I've a card holster that does a good job of stopping my RFID bank cards
> > (tested and proven by a complete failure to pay for things with NFC) so
> I'm
> > curious as to the mechanism and reasoning behind the recommendation to
> wrap
> > them in tin foil?
> >
> > On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I
> have
> >> often considered this.
> >>
> >> I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday
> shield,
> >> the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to stop a GPS
> >> receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough. Has the
> >> added advantage you can still identify the correct button to push to try
> >> and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> >> RussellMc
> >> Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
> >> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> >> Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> >>
> >> Comments on this article are invited.
> >> I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
> >> withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
> >>
> >> In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> >> recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried
> >> daily
> >> and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> >> The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> >> attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> >> (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
> >>
> >> https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> >> might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
> >>
> >>
> >> Russell
> >>
> >> ________________________
> >>
> >> Cited experts include:
> >>
> >> > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> >> Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
> >>
> >> > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
> >> > the
> >> Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets
> >> and
> >> missile defense systems.
> >> ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a
> >> net
> >> rather than a wall." ...
> >> He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already working
> >> with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on
> >> Porsche,
> >> Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other clients
> >> and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
> >>
> >> Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small tin
> >> can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum
> >> foil will do the job."
> >>
> >> > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who knows
> >> anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices safe
> >> fob storage.
> >>
> >> > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> >> > Security
> >> in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their
> >> credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.
> >>
> >> > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> >> paranoid, experts say.
> >>
> >> > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> >> > Information
> >> Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity
> >> strategies.
> >> "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage
> of
> >> design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> >> --
> >> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> >> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> >> mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >>
> >> --
> >> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> >> View/change your membership options at
> >> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Clint. M0UAW IO83
> >
> > *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large
> number
> > of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>



--
Clint. M0UAW IO83

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

Wrapping bank cards in tin foil is an alternative to what you have for the same purpose.

But in the UK there is a large number of high end vehicles stolen using the method in this article ...

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3355105/thieves-caught-on-cctv-using-laptop-to-hack-into-estate-agents-car-keys-in-her-kitchen-then-opening-35000-mercedes-doors-and-driving-off/

so the suggestion in the article Russell posted is to thwart the thieves by wrapping car keys in foil or putting them in a tin.



-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of Clint Jay
Sent: 09 July 2018 13:32
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

I've a card holster that does a good job of stopping my RFID bank cards (tested and proven by a complete failure to pay for things with NFC) so I'm curious as to the mechanism and reasoning behind the recommendation to wrap them in tin foil?

On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I
> have often considered this.
>
> I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday
> shield, the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to stop
> a GPS receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough.
> Has the added advantage you can still identify the correct button to
> push to try and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> RussellMc
> Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
> Comments on this article are invited.
> I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
> withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
>
> In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried
> daily and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
>
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
>
>
> Russell
>
> ________________________
>
> Cited experts include:
>
> > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
>
> > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
> > the
> Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets
> and missile defense systems.
> ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a
> net rather than a wall." ...
> He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already
> working with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen
> Group on Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from
> hackers. Other clients and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
>
> Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small
> tin can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just
> aluminum foil will do the job."
>
> > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who
> > knows
> anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices
> safe fob storage.
>
> > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> > Security
> in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry
> their credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.
>
> > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> paranoid, experts say.
>
> > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> > Information
> Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity strategies.
> "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage
> of design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>



--
Clint. M0UAW IO83

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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[John Gardner]

On 7/9/18, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk> wrote:
> Wrapping bank cards in tin foil is an alternative to what you have for the
> same purpose.
>
> But in the UK there is a large number of high end vehicles stolen using the
> method in this article ...
>
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3355105/thieves-caught-on-cctv-using-laptop-to-hack-into-estate-agents-car-keys-in-her-kitchen-then-opening-35000-mercedes-doors-and-driving-off/
>
> so the suggestion in the article Russell posted is to thwart the thieves by
> wrapping car keys in foil or putting them in a tin.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of Clint
> Jay
> Sent: 09 July 2018 13:32
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
> I've a card holster that does a good job of stopping my RFID bank cards
> (tested and proven by a complete failure to pay for things with NFC) so I'm
> curious as to the mechanism and reasoning behind the recommendation to wrap
> them in tin foil?
>
> On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I
>> have often considered this.
>>
>> I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday
>> shield, the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to stop
>> a GPS receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough.
>> Has the added advantage you can still identify the correct button to
>> push to try and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
>> RussellMc
>> Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
>> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
>> Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>>
>> Comments on this article are invited.
>> I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
>> withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
>>
>> In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
>> recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried
>> daily and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
>> The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
>> attempts to copy the unlock codes.
>> (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
>>
>> https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
>> might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
>>
>>
>> Russell
>>
>> ________________________
>>
>> Cited experts include:
>>
>> > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
>> Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
>>
>> > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
>> > the
>> Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets
>> and missile defense systems.
>> ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a
>> net rather than a wall." ...
>> He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already
>> working with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen
>> Group on Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from
>> hackers. Other clients and potential clients have asked to remain
>> confidential.
>>
>> Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small
>> tin can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just
>> aluminum foil will do the job."
>>
>> > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who
>> > knows
>> anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices
>> safe fob storage.
>>
>> > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
>> > Security
>> in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry
>> their credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday
>> cage.
>>
>> > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
>> paranoid, experts say.
>>
>> > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
>> > Information
>> Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity
>> strategies.
>> "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage
>> of design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
>> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>> --
>> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> View/change your membership options at
>> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Clint. M0UAW IO83
>
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change
> your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
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[David C Brown]

That is in the Sun Newspaper, the most authoritative source of information
in the world. I am surprised that it did not include a picture of the
victim in the nude.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 9 July 2018 at 13:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Wrapping bank cards in tin foil is an alternative to what you have for the
> same purpose.
>
> But in the UK there is a large number of high end vehicles stolen using
> the method in this article ...
>
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3355105/thieves-caught-on-
> cctv-using-laptop-to-hack-into-estate-agents-car-keys-
> in-her-kitchen-then-opening-35000-mercedes-doors-and-driving-off/
>
> so the suggestion in the article Russell posted is to thwart the thieves
> by wrapping car keys in foil or putting them in a tin.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> Clint Jay
> Sent: 09 July 2018 13:32
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
> I've a card holster that does a good job of stopping my RFID bank cards
> (tested and proven by a complete failure to pay for things with NFC) so I'm
> curious as to the mechanism and reasoning behind the recommendation to wrap
> them in tin foil?
>
> On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I
> > have often considered this.
> >
> > I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday
> > shield, the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to stop
> > a GPS receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough.
> > Has the added advantage you can still identify the correct button to
> > push to try and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> > RussellMc
> > Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> > Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> >
> > Comments on this article are invited.
> > I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
> > withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
> >
> > In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> > recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried
> > daily and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> > The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> > attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> > (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
> >
> > https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> > might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
> >
> >
> > Russell
> >
> > ________________________
> >
> > Cited experts include:
> >
> > > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> > Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
> >
> > > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
> > > the
> > Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets
> > and missile defense systems.
> > ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a
> > net rather than a wall." ...
> > He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already
> > working with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen
> > Group on Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from
> > hackers. Other clients and potential clients have asked to remain
> confidential.
> >
> > Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small
> > tin can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just
> > aluminum foil will do the job."
> >
> > > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who
> > > knows
> > anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices
> > safe fob storage.
> >
> > > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> > > Security
> > in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry
> > their credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday
> cage.
> >
> > > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> > paranoid, experts say.
> >
> > > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> > > Information
> > Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity
> strategies.
> > "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage
> > of design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> > mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Clint. M0UAW IO83
>
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

Yes I posted a link to the Sun, but there were two identical articles that were more intrusive in their pop-up advertising, from other papers, that I could have linked to.
The Mirror ... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thieves-use-laptop-hack-estate-10247459
Daily Mail ... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4420786/Thieves-caught-CCTV-hacking-Mercedes-couple-s-drive.html

Here is an article by the Anti-Virus toolmaker Sophos ...
https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2016/07/08/thieves-using-laptops-to-hack-into-and-steal-cars/

You could, as an alternative, order one of these pouches from Amazon ...
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=car+theft



It seems the possible problem is even wider ...

If leaving laptop in car make sure it is turned off, not just hibernated ...
https://dispatcheseurope.com/diy-expat-thieves-use-crimetech-steal-laptop/
And an article debunking the idea ...
https://planetmagpie.com/news/magpie-tech-tips/2017/12/07/thieves-don-t-have-laptop-detectors-(but-protect-your-laptop-s-safety-anyway)


The world of RF sniffing has gone way beyond finding Wi-Fi hotspots.



-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of David C Brown
Sent: 09 July 2018 13:57
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

That is in the Sun Newspaper, the most authoritative source of information in the world. I am surprised that it did not include a picture of the victim in the nude.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 9 July 2018 at 13:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Wrapping bank cards in tin foil is an alternative to what you have for
> the same purpose.
>
> But in the UK there is a large number of high end vehicles stolen
> using the method in this article ...
>
> https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3355105/thieves-caught-on-
> cctv-using-laptop-to-hack-into-estate-agents-car-keys-
> in-her-kitchen-then-opening-35000-mercedes-doors-and-driving-off/
>
> so the suggestion in the article Russell posted is to thwart the
> thieves by wrapping car keys in foil or putting them in a tin.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> Clint Jay
> Sent: 09 July 2018 13:32
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
> I've a card holster that does a good job of stopping my RFID bank
> cards (tested and proven by a complete failure to pay for things with
> NFC) so I'm curious as to the mechanism and reasoning behind the
> recommendation to wrap them in tin foil?
>
> On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC
> <***@stfc.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I
> > have often considered this.
> >
> > I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday
> > shield, the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to
> > stop a GPS receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be enough.
> > Has the added advantage you can still identify the correct button to
> > push to try and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> > RussellMc
> > Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> > Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> >
> > Comments on this article are invited.
> > I have already written a response on this article to a friend but
> > will withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
> >
> > In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> > recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when
> > carried daily and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> > The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> > attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> > (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
> >
> > https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> > might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
> >
> >
> > Russell
> >
> > ________________________
> >
> > Cited experts include:
> >
> > > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> > Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
> >
> > > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran
> > > of the
> > Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter
> > jets and missile defense systems.
> > ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially
> > a net rather than a wall." ...
> > He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already
> > working with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen
> > Group on Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from
> > hackers. Other clients and potential clients have asked to remain
> confidential.
> >
> > Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small
> > tin can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just
> > aluminum foil will do the job."
> >
> > > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who
> > > knows
> > anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices
> > safe fob storage.
> >
> > > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> > > Security
> > in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry
> > their credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a
> > Faraday
> cage.
> >
> > > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> > paranoid, experts say.
> >
> > > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> > > Information
> > Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity
> strategies.
> > "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every
> > stage of design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> > mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Clint. M0UAW IO83
>
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large
> number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[Chris Roper]

I just lock my car keys in a grounded Iron Safe and use UBER to get to the
Pub ;>)


On 9 July 2018 at 15:26, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> Yes I posted a link to the Sun, but there were two identical articles that
> were more intrusive in their pop-up advertising, from other papers, that I
> could have linked to.
> The Mirror ... https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/thieves-use-laptop-
> hack-estate-10247459
> Daily Mail ... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4420786/Thieves-
> caught-CCTV-hacking-Mercedes-couple-s-drive.html
>
> Here is an article by the Anti-Virus toolmaker Sophos ...
> https://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2016/07/08/thieves-using-
> laptops-to-hack-into-and-steal-cars/
>
> You could, as an alternative, order one of these pouches from Amazon ...
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=car+theft
>
>
>
> It seems the possible problem is even wider ...
>
> If leaving laptop in car make sure it is turned off, not just hibernated
> ...
> https://dispatcheseurope.com/diy-expat-thieves-use-crimetech-steal-laptop/
> And an article debunking the idea ...
> https://planetmagpie.com/news/magpie-tech-tips/2017/12/07/
> thieves-don-t-have-laptop-detectors-(but-protect-your-
> laptop-s-safety-anyway)
>
>
> The world of RF sniffing has gone way beyond finding Wi-Fi hotspots.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> David C Brown
> Sent: 09 July 2018 13:57
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
> That is in the Sun Newspaper, the most authoritative source of information
> in the world. I am surprised that it did not include a picture of the
> victim in the nude.
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: [phone]
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
> On 9 July 2018 at 13:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
> wrote:
>
> > Wrapping bank cards in tin foil is an alternative to what you have for
> > the same purpose.
> >
> > But in the UK there is a large number of high end vehicles stolen
> > using the method in this article ...
> >
> > https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3355105/thieves-caught-on-
> > cctv-using-laptop-to-hack-into-estate-agents-car-keys-
> > in-her-kitchen-then-opening-35000-mercedes-doors-and-driving-off/
> >
> > so the suggestion in the article Russell posted is to thwart the
> > thieves by wrapping car keys in foil or putting them in a tin.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> > Clint Jay
> > Sent: 09 July 2018 13:32
> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> >
> > I've a card holster that does a good job of stopping my RFID bank
> > cards (tested and proven by a complete failure to pay for things with
> > NFC) so I'm curious as to the mechanism and reasoning behind the
> > recommendation to wrap them in tin foil?
> >
> > On 9 July 2018 at 12:50, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC
> > <***@stfc.ac.uk>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I
> > > have often considered this.
> > >
> > > I'm wondering if a standard antistatic bag is enough of a faraday
> > > shield, the IR reflective film on my office windows are enough to
> > > stop a GPS receiver working, so I suspect an antistatic bag will be
> enough.
> > > Has the added advantage you can still identify the correct button to
> > > push to try and unlock the car to prove it is a good enough shield.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> > > RussellMc
> > > Sent: 09 July 2018 12:21
> > > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> > > Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> > >
> > > Comments on this article are invited.
> > > I have already written a response on this article to a friend but
> > > will withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
> > >
> > > In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> > > recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when
> > > carried daily and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> > > The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> > > attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> > > (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
> > >
> > > https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> > > might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
> > >
> > >
> > > Russell
> > >
> > > ________________________
> > >
> > > Cited experts include:
> > >
> > > > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> > > Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
> > >
> > > > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran
> > > > of the
> > > Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter
> > > jets and missile defense systems.
> > > ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially
> > > a net rather than a wall." ...
> > > He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already
> > > working with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen
> > > Group on Porsche, Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from
> > > hackers. Other clients and potential clients have asked to remain
> > confidential.
> > >
> > > Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small
> > > tin can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just
> > > aluminum foil will do the job."
> > >
> > > > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who
> > > > knows
> > > anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices
> > > safe fob storage.
> > >
> > > > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> > > > Security
> > > in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry
> > > their credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a
> > > Faraday
> > cage.
> > >
> > > > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> > > paranoid, experts say.
> > >
> > > > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> > > > Information
> > > Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity
> > strategies.
> > > "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every
> > > stage of design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> > > mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Clint. M0UAW IO83
> >
> > *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large
> > number of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> > mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> > --
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> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> --
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> View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
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[Justin Richards]

Living in the land where this problem seems to be highly prevalent I have
> often considered this.
>

Highly prevalent as in cars are stolen this way or car theft in general is
highly prevalent
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[Timmothy Relerford]

All,

It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
copied is if someone presses one of the
buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
hanging on a wall hook, how would
someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to transmit? As
far as I know, key fobs are not
receivers. They're only transmitters. So unless I'm missing
something, I think the whole idea of
copying the code from a key fob is a load of bull.
Now, if someone were near their car and they were to press a button, I
could see where someone could
capture the code, and possible use it for malicious purposes. But
copying it outside the home or bldg.
while just sitting there, I don't think so.
If someone know that this happens, please explain it to me so I too can
understand.

Regards,

Jim

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> From: RussellMc <***@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 6:21 am
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
>
>
> Comments on this article are invited.
> I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
> withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
>
> In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried daily
> and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
>
> https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
>
>
> Russell
>
> ________________________
>
> Cited experts include:
>
> > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
>
> > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of the
> Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets and
> missile defense systems.
> ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a net
> rather than a wall." ...
> He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already working
> with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on Porsche,
> Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other clients
> and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
>
> Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small tin
> can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum
> foil will do the job."
>
> > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who knows
> anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices safe
> fob storage.
>
> > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems Security
> in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their
> credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.
>
> > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> paranoid, experts say.
>
> > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive Information
> Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity strategies.
> "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage of
> design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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[Justin Richards]

>
> Now, if someone were near their car and they were to press a button, I
> could see where someone could
> capture the code, and possible use it for malicious purposes. But
> copying it outside the home or bldg.
>

I had assumed it would still be very challenging if they were able to
capture a code as I suspect that some form of rolling code or tokens like
banks use are employed.
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[David C Brown]

I don;t think modern keyfobs use a fixed code which can be captured. AIUI
each time you use the fob it rolls over to a new code which is created by
applying a complex algorithm to the previous code.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00001683A.pdf

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 9 July 2018 at 13:44, Timmothy Relerford <***@jpes.com> wrote:

>
> All,
>
> It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> copied is if someone presses one of the
> buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
> hanging on a wall hook, how would
> someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to transmit? As
> far as I know, key fobs are not
> receivers. They're only transmitters. So unless I'm missing
> something, I think the whole idea of
> copying the code from a key fob is a load of bull.
> Now, if someone were near their car and they were to press a button, I
> could see where someone could
> capture the code, and possible use it for malicious purposes. But
> copying it outside the home or bldg.
> while just sitting there, I don't think so.
> If someone know that this happens, please explain it to me so I too can
> understand.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim
>
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> > From: RussellMc <***@gmail.com>
> > Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 6:21 am
> > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
> >
> >
> > Comments on this article are invited.
> > I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
> > withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
> >
> > In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> > recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried
> daily
> > and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> > The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> > attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> > (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
> >
> > https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> > might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
> >
> >
> > Russell
> >
> > ________________________
> >
> > Cited experts include:
> >
> > > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> > Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
> >
> > > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of the
> > Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets
> and
> > missile defense systems.
> > ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a
> net
> > rather than a wall." ...
> > He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already working
> > with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on
> Porsche,
> > Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other clients
> > and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
> >
> > Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small tin
> > can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum
> > foil will do the job."
> >
> > > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who knows
> > anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices safe
> > fob storage.
> >
> > > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> Security
> > in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their
> > credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.
> >
> > > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> > paranoid, experts say.
> >
> > > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive Information
> > Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity
> strategies.
> > "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage of
> > design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[Clint Jay]

They do use a rolling code but there are a number of rolling code chips
that have been 'broken', Keeloq is one of them. Ultimate Keeloq might still
be secure.

On 9 July 2018 at 13:52, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I don;t think modern keyfobs use a fixed code which can be captured. AIUI
> each time you use the fob it rolls over to a new code which is created by
> applying a complex algorithm to the previous code.
>
> http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00001683A.pdf
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: [phone]
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
> On 9 July 2018 at 13:44, Timmothy Relerford <***@jpes.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > All,
> >
> > It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> > copied is if someone presses one of the
> > buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
> > hanging on a wall hook, how would
> > someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to transmit? As
> > far as I know, key fobs are not
> > receivers. They're only transmitters. So unless I'm missing
> > something, I think the whole idea of
> > copying the code from a key fob is a load of bull.
> > Now, if someone were near their car and they were to press a button, I
> > could see where someone could
> > capture the code, and possible use it for malicious purposes. But
> > copying it outside the home or bldg.
> > while just sitting there, I don't think so.
> > If someone know that this happens, please explain it to me so I too can
> > understand.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> > > From: RussellMc <***@gmail.com>
> > > Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 6:21 am
> > > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
> > >
> > >
> > > Comments on this article are invited.
> > > I have already written a response on this article to a friend but will
> > > withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
> > >
> > > In this article a number of senior security experts are reported to
> > > recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil when carried
> > daily
> > > and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> > > The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan) "cyber-thieves' "
> > > attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> > > (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
> > >
> > > https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> > > might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
> > >
> > >
> > > Russell
> > >
> > > ________________________
> > >
> > > Cited experts include:
> > >
> > > > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in Buffalo, New York.
> > > Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
> > >
> > > > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a veteran of
> the
> > > Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for fighter jets
> > and
> > > missile defense systems.
> > > ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're essentially a
> > net
> > > rather than a wall." ...
> > > He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's already
> working
> > > with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen Group on
> > Porsche,
> > > Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers. Other
> clients
> > > and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
> > >
> > > Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key in a small
> tin
> > > can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket, just aluminum
> > > foil will do the job."
> > >
> > > > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that anyone who
> knows
> > > anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking practices
> safe
> > > fob storage.
> > >
> > > > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer Systems
> > Security
> > > in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who now carry their
> > > credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a Faraday cage.
> > >
> > > > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday cages aren't
> > > paranoid, experts say.
> > >
> > > > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit Automotive
> Information
> > > Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in cybersecurity
> > strategies.
> > > "Automakers are starting to implement security features in every stage
> of
> > > design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>



--
Clint. M0UAW IO83

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

>It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be copied is if someone
> presses one of the buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
> hanging on a wall hook, how would someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the
> key fob to transmit? As far as I know, key fobs are not receivers. They're only transmitters.
> So unless I'm missing something, I think the whole idea of copying the code from a key fob is a load of bull.

No, it is not a lot of bull. If you need to insert a key into the steering column to drive the car, then it is probably not a problem, but where the problem starts is a lot of cars, especially high end ones (and these are the ones that seem to be targeted), are keyless entry and keyless operation, you only need to have the fob in your pocket. This implies that the fob has some sort of receive and respond mechanism so that when you walk up to the car it unlocks without you touching the fob, and when you get in you push a button and the car starts - again without you touching anything on the fob.

So the guys in the article I posted the link to have some form of transmitter and receiver plugged into the laptop that sends a standard request as though it comes from the car, and the fob in the house responds with the answer to the challenge. It doesn't matter that there is a fancy rolling code, the laptop is powerful enough to generate this on the fly from whatever it gets back from the fob. An 'unlock' request is then generated by the laptop, the thieve climbs into the car and drives away with the laptop emulating the left behind key. Thieves take vehicle to a lockup where they substitute the valid key codes for a new set of keys, ship vehicle out of country and make lots of money.



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[Allen Mulvey]

They are not talking about the button fob types. They are
referring to the proximity fobs, no buttons. The thief uses
what amounts to a range extender to make it seem like the
fob is close to the car.

Allen

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu
[mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of Timmothy
Relerford
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 8:45 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil


All,

It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able
to be
copied is if someone presses one of the
buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a
table or
hanging on a wall hook, how would
someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to
transmit? As
far as I know, key fobs are not
receivers. They're only transmitters. So unless I'm
missing
something, I think the whole idea of
copying the code from a key fob is a load of bull.
Now, if someone were near their car and they were to press
a button, I
could see where someone could
capture the code, and possible use it for malicious
purposes. But
copying it outside the home or bldg.
while just sitting there, I don't think so.
If someone know that this happens, please explain it to me
so I too can
understand.

Regards,

Jim

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> From: RussellMc <***@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 6:21 am
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public."
<***@mit.edu>
>
>
> Comments on this article are invited.
> I have already written a response on this article to a
friend but will
> withhold posting it for a while to see what others say.
>
> In this article a number of senior security experts are
reported to
> recommend wrapping car electronic key fobs* with tinfoil
when carried daily
> and maybe storing in a metal can at home.
> The aim is to create a Faraday cage to foil (groan)
"cyber-thieves' "
> attempts to copy the unlock codes.
> (* ie 'keys' with wireless unlocking capabilities )
>
>
https://www.stuff.co.nz/motoring/105333168/why-you-
> might-want-to-wrap-your-car-key-in-foil
>
>
> Russell
>
> ________________________
>
> Cited experts include:
>
> > Holly Hubert, who retired in 2017 from the FBI in
Buffalo, New York.
> Now, CEO of GlobalSecurityIQ,
>
> > Moshe Shlisel, CEO of GuardKnox Cyber Technologies and a
veteran of the
> Israeli Air Force who helped develop cyber protection for
fighter jets and
> missile defense systems.
> ... "The credit card holders don't work because they're
essentially a net
> rather than a wall." ...
> He visited Detroit recently to meet with carmakers. He's
already working
> with Daimler on Mercedes-Benz vehicles and the Volkswagen
Group on Porsche,
> Audi and Volkswagen products to protect them from hackers.
Other clients
> and potential clients have asked to remain confidential.
>
> Shlisel says: "The best thing you can do is keep your key
in a small tin
> can wrapped with aluminum foil. But in a purse or pocket,
just aluminum
> foil will do the job."
>
> > Unspecified: Cybersecurity experts say privately that
anyone who knows
> anything about the ease of auto and personal data hacking
practices safe
> fob storage.
>
> > Clifford Neuman, director of the USC Center for Computer
Systems Security
> in Los Angeles, points to the millions of consumers who
now carry their
> credit cards in a protective pocket designed to work as a
Faraday cage.
>
> > Unspecified: People who store their fobs in Faraday
cages aren't
> paranoid, experts say.
>
> > Faye Francy, executive director of the nonprofit
Automotive Information
> Sharing and Analysis Center, which specialises in
cybersecurity strategies.
> "Automakers are starting to implement security features in
every stage of
> design and manufacturing. This includes the key fob."
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list
archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

> They are not talking about the button fob types. They are referring to the proximity fobs,
> no buttons. The thief uses what amounts to a range extender to make it seem like the fob is close to the car.

But it is also applicable to button fobs where you have keyless start/stop, as these have a transponder as well. My Ford Mondeo works like this. If I get out of the car with the engine running the dash displays "key outside vehicle", so it knows ...




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[Denny Esterline]

>
>
> It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> copied is if someone presses one of the
> buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
> hanging on a wall hook, how would
> someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to transmit?




This is a misunderstanding. I cannot claim to know the underlying
technology, but
many new car keyfobs today are "proximity devices". Fob in pocket, press
button
on dash to start car. Definitely do not have to press any buttons on the
fob.

I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an article
claiming
thieves were using SDR as a repeater to significantly boost the range of
what the
car considers "proximity". The claim was with your keys on a hook by your
front
door, they could use a repeater outside and drive the car away.

The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack any
codes,
just boost a signal.


-Denny
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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

> The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack any codes, just boost a signal.

And then keep repeating it so the car thinks the key is in it so once started the engine keeps running.

Although having said that, I know of an instance with a Volkswagen where an owner opened the car and started it, went back in the house, left keys on the table and (absent minded) went and got in the car and drove a couple of hundred miles. Didn't realise he had left the keys behind until he had stopped the car, couldn't lock it, or restart it.

I haven't )yet) tried with my Ford to see how long the engine will stay running without the key in the car.



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[Bob Blick]

It will run until the car stops for more than a few seconds. At least, that's what happened to a friend's wife in her Mecedes SUV. The couple left together, she was driving, he had the keyfob in his pocket. She dropped him off somewhere and drove many miles without the key. When she eventually stopped at a traffic signal the car shut off and she was stranded. Yes, there were probably lights on the dashboard attempting to warn her of her misdeeds.

Bob


________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of AB Pearce - UKRI STFC
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 8:43 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: RE: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

> The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack any codes, just boost a signal.

And then keep repeating it so the car thinks the key is in it so once started the engine keeps running.

Although having said that, I know of an instance with a Volkswagen where an owner opened the car and started it, went back in the house, left keys on the table and (absent minded) went and got in the car and drove a couple of hundred miles. Didn't realise he had left the keys behind until he had stopped the car, couldn't lock it, or restart it.

I haven't )yet) tried with my Ford to see how long the engine will stay running without the key in the car.


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[Sean Breheny]

My understanding is that these newer fobs that are "touchless" use two
different frequency bands - one the traditional UHF and the other in the LF
or VLF range. The LF one is used to determine proximity (being near field
only it is easier to deduce distance from signal strength). The UHF one is
used to transmit data or perform any functions which are intended to be
performed at a distance.

I would suspect that aluminum foil is not going to attenuate LF or VLF
tremendously because the thickness is only on the same order as the skin
depth, not many skin depths.

I also suspect that aluminum foil would have to be carefully arranged to
reliably block UHF since even a rather circuitous path out from the inside,
as long as it is wide enough, will allow signal transmission.

I highly doubt that a conductive ESD bag is going to make much difference
to the signal strength.

Most food cans (and other types of "tins") have coatings on them to protect
the metal from corrosion and their lid does not make electrical contact
with the body of the tin when they are mated. Once again, this will permit
both LF and UHF transmission quite well.

To be reasonably sure that you have placed your fob in an effective shield,
even for UHF, would require that you use a container where the ENTIRE
perimeter of the lid makes good electrical contact with the body of the
container, with no more than a 2 or 3 millimeters gap between points of
electrical contact.

It is a very educational exercise to attempt to completely shield an RX or
TX at UHF frequencies. It is actually quite difficult to do it.

Sean


On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:25 AM, Denny Esterline <***@gmail.com>
wrote:

> >
> >
> > It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> > copied is if someone presses one of the
> > buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
> > hanging on a wall hook, how would
> > someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to transmit?
>
>
>
>
> This is a misunderstanding. I cannot claim to know the underlying
> technology, but
> many new car keyfobs today are "proximity devices". Fob in pocket, press
> button
> on dash to start car. Definitely do not have to press any buttons on the
> fob.
>
> I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an article
> claiming
> thieves were using SDR as a repeater to significantly boost the range of
> what the
> car considers "proximity". The claim was with your keys on a hook by your
> front
> door, they could use a repeater outside and drive the car away.
>
> The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack any
> codes,
> just boost a signal.
>
>
> -Denny
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[David C Brown]

A brass box with all the seams soldered should do the job.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 9 July 2018 at 16:50, Sean Breheny <***@cornell.edu> wrote:

> My understanding is that these newer fobs that are "touchless" use two
> different frequency bands - one the traditional UHF and the other in the LF
> or VLF range. The LF one is used to determine proximity (being near field
> only it is easier to deduce distance from signal strength). The UHF one is
> used to transmit data or perform any functions which are intended to be
> performed at a distance.
>
> I would suspect that aluminum foil is not going to attenuate LF or VLF
> tremendously because the thickness is only on the same order as the skin
> depth, not many skin depths.
>
> I also suspect that aluminum foil would have to be carefully arranged to
> reliably block UHF since even a rather circuitous path out from the inside,
> as long as it is wide enough, will allow signal transmission.
>
> I highly doubt that a conductive ESD bag is going to make much difference
> to the signal strength.
>
> Most food cans (and other types of "tins") have coatings on them to protect
> the metal from corrosion and their lid does not make electrical contact
> with the body of the tin when they are mated. Once again, this will permit
> both LF and UHF transmission quite well.
>
> To be reasonably sure that you have placed your fob in an effective shield,
> even for UHF, would require that you use a container where the ENTIRE
> perimeter of the lid makes good electrical contact with the body of the
> container, with no more than a 2 or 3 millimeters gap between points of
> electrical contact.
>
> It is a very educational exercise to attempt to completely shield an RX or
> TX at UHF frequencies. It is actually quite difficult to do it.
>
> Sean
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 11:25 AM, Denny Esterline <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > >
> > >
> > > It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> > > copied is if someone presses one of the
> > > buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
> > > hanging on a wall hook, how would
> > > someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to transmit?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is a misunderstanding. I cannot claim to know the underlying
> > technology, but
> > many new car keyfobs today are "proximity devices". Fob in pocket, press
> > button
> > on dash to start car. Definitely do not have to press any buttons on the
> > fob.
> >
> > I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an
> article
> > claiming
> > thieves were using SDR as a repeater to significantly boost the range of
> > what the
> > car considers "proximity". The claim was with your keys on a hook by your
> > front
> > door, they could use a repeater outside and drive the car away.
> >
> > The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack any
> > codes,
> > just boost a signal.
> >
> >
> > -Denny
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
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[Sean Breheny]

Yes IF the lid connection is adequate. What many people fail to realize (as
I did, too, until I tried it) is that it is not mainly the AREA of openings
in the enclosure which matters but the largest linear dimension. So, you
can have a lid which never separates from the box by more than 10 microns,
but has a spot where there is 20mm distance between two points of
electrical connection, and it will allow UHF propagation into the box. This
is why RF test gear - especially at microwave frequencies - will often have
MANY screws holding lids onto boxes - it deforms the lid enough to enforce
an electrical connection at each screw location, minimizing the maximum
distance between guaranteed points of electrical contact. Note that this
effect is not due to signal propagation through the opening but rather the
current which flows in the box walls having to go AROUND the long but
narrow gap, thus making a slot antenna.

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 12:11 PM, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> A brass box with all the seams soldered should do the job.
>
>
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[Van Horn, David]

Yup. Google "Slot Antenna" and all becomes clear.


-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of Sean Breheny
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 12:02 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

Yes IF the lid connection is adequate. What many people fail to realize (as I did, too, until I tried it) is that it is not mainly the AREA of openings in the enclosure which matters but the largest linear dimension. So, you can have a lid which never separates from the box by more than 10 microns, but has a spot where there is 20mm distance between two points of electrical connection, and it will allow UHF propagation into the box. This is why RF test gear - especially at microwave frequencies - will often have MANY screws holding lids onto boxes - it deforms the lid enough to enforce an electrical connection at each screw location, minimizing the maximum distance between guaranteed points of electrical contact. Note that this effect is not due to signal propagation through the opening but rather the current which flows in the box walls having to go AROUND the long but narrow gap, thus making a slot antenna.

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 12:11 PM, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> A brass box with all the seams soldered should do the job.
>
>
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[RussellMc]

On 10 July 2018 at 06:02, Sean Breheny <***@cornell.edu> wrote:


> ​...
> you
> ​ ​
> can have a lid which never separates from the box by more than 10 microns,
> but has a spot where there is 20mm distance between two points of
> electrical connection, and it will allow UHF propagation into the box.


​... Note that this effect is not due to signal propagation through the
opening but rather the

> current which flows in the box walls having to go AROUND the long but
> narrow gap, thus making a slot antenna.


​Very nice.
Some unexpected "education" reasonably unrelated to ​the original theme.
I was aware of the "any slot leaks" issue, but had never thought of it in
terms of current in the "shield".

The rest of the thread has been very interesting as well.


Russell
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ht

[RussellMc]

On 10 July 2018 at 03:25, Denny Esterline <***@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an article
> claiming
> ​
> thieves were using SDR as a repeater to significantly boost the range of
> what the
> ​
> car considers "proximity". The claim was with your keys on a hook by your
> front
> ​
> door, they could use a repeater outside and drive the car away.
>
> The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack any
> codes,
> ​
> just boost a signal.
>

​Here's a 28 second video from April 2017 demonstrating (simulated)
relay-attack on PKE (Passive Keyless Entry) system.​
One 'attacker remains in close proximity to keyholder and relays signal to
equipment operated by a person at the car.

This link came from an article someone posted here (Alan Pearce?)

​https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=bXfp8F4J2eI​


Russell
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[Timmothy Relerford]

I stand corrected. I didn't think of that. I was thinking of the
remote key fobs with several buttons
on them. I totally didn't think of the ones you just need to have with
you to start the car.
I can see where this could take place. I apologize.

Regards,

Jim

Regards,

Jim

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: RE: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> From: AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
> Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 8:13 am
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
>
>
> >It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be copied is if someone
> > presses one of the buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
> > hanging on a wall hook, how would someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the
> > key fob to transmit? As far as I know, key fobs are not receivers. They're only transmitters.
> > So unless I'm missing something, I think the whole idea of copying the code from a key fob is a load of bull.
>
> No, it is not a lot of bull. If you need to insert a key into the steering column to drive the car, then it is probably not a problem, but where the problem starts is a lot of cars, especially high end ones (and these are the ones that seem to be targeted), are keyless entry and keyless operation, you only need to have the fob in your pocket. This implies that the fob has some sort of receive and respond mechanism so that when you walk up to the car it unlocks without you touching the fob, and when you get in you push a button and the car starts - again without you touching anything on the fob.
>
> So the guys in the article I posted the link to have some form of transmitter and receiver plugged into the laptop that sends a standard request as though it comes from the car, and the fob in the house responds with the answer to the challenge. It doesn't matter that there is a fancy rolling code, the laptop is powerful enough to generate this on the fly from whatever it gets back from the fob. An 'unlock' request is then generated by the laptop, the thieve climbs into the car and drives away with the laptop emulating the left behind key. Thieves take vehicle to a lockup where they substitute the valid key codes for a new set of keys, ship vehicle out of country and make lots of money.
>
>
>
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[Timmothy Relerford]

If the key fob was inside someone's house and a thief used some method
of repeating the signal to start
the car and drive away, what happens after they get some distance away?
Does the car shut off?
In other words, doesn't that fob signal have to remain in proximity of
the car to keep it going?
After all, if you're the rightful owner, and you have the fob in your
pocket and you get into your car
and drive away, no matter where you go, that signal will be in
proximity of the car. After all, you're
sitting in the front seat.
But if the signal is being repeated, at some point, that signal will
disappear. Will the car turn off
now? If it does, then the thief would only get a short distance away
before the car stops and he won't
be able to get it started again unless he copies the signal and
programs a piece of electronic equipment
to act as the fob from that point. I guess they could strip it or tow
it after that, but that would seem
risky to me.



Regards,

Jim

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> From: Denny Esterline <***@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 10:25 am
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
>
>
> >
> >
> > It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> > copied is if someone presses one of the
> > buttons to transmit the signal. If it is just sitting on a table or
> > hanging on a wall hook, how would
> > someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to transmit?
>
>
>
>
> This is a misunderstanding. I cannot claim to know the underlying
> technology, but
> many new car keyfobs today are "proximity devices". Fob in pocket, press
> button
> on dash to start car. Definitely do not have to press any buttons on the
> fob.
>
> I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an article
> claiming
> thieves were using SDR as a repeater to significantly boost the range of
> what the
> car considers "proximity". The claim was with your keys on a hook by your
> front
> door, they could use a repeater outside and drive the car away.
>
> The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack any
> codes,
> just boost a signal.
>
>
> -Denny
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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[Van Horn, David]

So what would happen if you were driving legitimately and the keyfob battery died?
I'd take exception to a sudden panic stop on the interstate.

I suspect that once the vehicle is started, that they keep everything going till the car is shut down again for exactly that reason.



-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of Timmothy Relerford
Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 9:50 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: RE: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil


If the key fob was inside someone's house and a thief used some method of repeating the signal to start the car and drive away, what happens after they get some distance away?
Does the car shut off?
In other words, doesn't that fob signal have to remain in proximity of the car to keep it going?
After all, if you're the rightful owner, and you have the fob in your pocket and you get into your car and drive away, no matter where you go, that signal will be in proximity of the car. After all, you're sitting in the front seat.
But if the signal is being repeated, at some point, that signal will disappear. Will the car turn off now? If it does, then the thief would only get a short distance away before the car stops and he won't be able to get it started again unless he copies the signal and programs a piece of electronic equipment to act as the fob from that point. I guess they could strip it or tow it after that, but that would seem risky to me.



Regards,

Jim

> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> From: Denny Esterline <***@gmail.com>
> Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 10:25 am
> To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
>
>
> >
> >
> > It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> > copied is if someone presses one of the buttons to transmit the
> > signal. If it is just sitting on a table or hanging on a wall hook,
> > how would someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to
> > transmit?
>
>
>
>
> This is a misunderstanding. I cannot claim to know the underlying
> technology, but many new car keyfobs today are "proximity devices".
> Fob in pocket, press button on dash to start car. Definitely do not
> have to press any buttons on the fob.
>
> I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an
> article claiming thieves were using SDR as a repeater to significantly
> boost the range of what the car considers "proximity". The claim was
> with your keys on a hook by your front door, they could use a repeater
> outside and drive the car away.
>
> The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack
> any codes, just boost a signal.
>
>
> -Denny
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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[David C Brown]

That is how they work. Hence the story of the driver stranded 300 miles
from home because he dropped the device in his drive after starting the
engine.

But, interesting as this technical discussion is, it begs the question of
why these devices are becoming so ubiquitous. Are drivers becoming so
indolent that pressing the button the key is just far too much effort?

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 9 July 2018 at 17:06, Van Horn, David <
***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:

>
> So what would happen if you were driving legitimately and the keyfob
> battery died?
> I'd take exception to a sudden panic stop on the interstate.
>
> I suspect that once the vehicle is started, that they keep everything
> going till the car is shut down again for exactly that reason.
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> Timmothy Relerford
> Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 9:50 AM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: RE: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
>
> If the key fob was inside someone's house and a thief used some method of
> repeating the signal to start the car and drive away, what happens after
> they get some distance away?
> Does the car shut off?
> In other words, doesn't that fob signal have to remain in proximity of
> the car to keep it going?
> After all, if you're the rightful owner, and you have the fob in your
> pocket and you get into your car and drive away, no matter where you go,
> that signal will be in proximity of the car. After all, you're sitting in
> the front seat.
> But if the signal is being repeated, at some point, that signal will
> disappear. Will the car turn off now? If it does, then the thief would
> only get a short distance away before the car stops and he won't be able
> to get it started again unless he copies the signal and programs a piece of
> electronic equipment to act as the fob from that point. I guess they
> could strip it or tow it after that, but that would seem risky to me.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim
>
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> > From: Denny Esterline <***@gmail.com>
> > Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 10:25 am
> > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
> >
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> > > copied is if someone presses one of the buttons to transmit the
> > > signal. If it is just sitting on a table or hanging on a wall hook,
> > > how would someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to
> > > transmit?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > This is a misunderstanding. I cannot claim to know the underlying
> > technology, but many new car keyfobs today are "proximity devices".
> > Fob in pocket, press button on dash to start car. Definitely do not
> > have to press any buttons on the fob.
> >
> > I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an
> > article claiming thieves were using SDR as a repeater to significantly
> > boost the range of what the car considers "proximity". The claim was
> > with your keys on a hook by your front door, they could use a repeater
> > outside and drive the car away.
> >
> > The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack
> > any codes, just boost a signal.
> >
> >
> > -Denny
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[James Cameron]

I've not heard any driver ask for this feature, but many have said it is nice, because they can think less as they use the system. Keys in pocket, get in car, drive off.

The companies that provided the feature do benefit from new car sales after theft. ;-)

On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 05:10:25PM +0100, David C Brown wrote:
> That is how they work. Hence the story of the driver stranded 300 miles
> from home because he dropped the device in his drive after starting the
> engine.
>
> But, interesting as this technical discussion is, it begs the question of
> why these devices are becoming so ubiquitous. Are drivers becoming so
> indolent that pressing the button the key is just far too much effort?
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: [phone]
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
> On 9 July 2018 at 17:06, Van Horn, David <
> ***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > So what would happen if you were driving legitimately and the keyfob
> > battery died?
> > I'd take exception to a sudden panic stop on the interstate.
> >
> > I suspect that once the vehicle is started, that they keep everything
> > going till the car is shut down again for exactly that reason.
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> > Timmothy Relerford
> > Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 9:50 AM
> > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> > Subject: RE: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> >
> >
> > If the key fob was inside someone's house and a thief used some method of
> > repeating the signal to start the car and drive away, what happens after
> > they get some distance away?
> > Does the car shut off?
> > In other words, doesn't that fob signal have to remain in proximity of
> > the car to keep it going?
> > After all, if you're the rightful owner, and you have the fob in your
> > pocket and you get into your car and drive away, no matter where you go,
> > that signal will be in proximity of the car. After all, you're sitting in
> > the front seat.
> > But if the signal is being repeated, at some point, that signal will
> > disappear. Will the car turn off now? If it does, then the thief would
> > only get a short distance away before the car stops and he won't be able
> > to get it started again unless he copies the signal and programs a piece of
> > electronic equipment to act as the fob from that point. I guess they
> > could strip it or tow it after that, but that would seem risky to me.
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Jim
> >
> > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> > > From: Denny Esterline <***@gmail.com>
> > > Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 10:25 am
> > > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> > > > copied is if someone presses one of the buttons to transmit the
> > > > signal. If it is just sitting on a table or hanging on a wall hook,
> > > > how would someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to
> > > > transmit?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This is a misunderstanding. I cannot claim to know the underlying
> > > technology, but many new car keyfobs today are "proximity devices".
> > > Fob in pocket, press button on dash to start car. Definitely do not
> > > have to press any buttons on the fob.
> > >
> > > I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an
> > > article claiming thieves were using SDR as a repeater to significantly
> > > boost the range of what the car considers "proximity". The claim was
> > > with your keys on a hook by your front door, they could use a repeater
> > > outside and drive the car away.
> > >
> > > The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack
> > > any codes, just boost a signal.
> > >
> > >
> > > -Denny
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> > mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
> --
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> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

--
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http://quozl.netrek.org/
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[David C Brown]

I considered modifying a car in that way many years ago. But I considered
it only worthwhile if the key could be small enough to be worn all the
time: in a bracelet or a pendant. As I couldn't make anything small
enough I abandoned the idea. My primary motivation was my predilection
for misplacing keys and if I had been able to implement the idea I would
have extended it to my household locks.

Having had my cars broken into on several occasions with several hundred
pounds worth of damage being caused in order to steal a few pounds worth of
goods I think that there is much to be said for leaving the vehicle
unlocked but fitting an immobiliser. A cunning immobiliser would
simulate an engine failure after a few minutes driving. When I had an open
top sports car I fitted a concealed switch which disabled both the fuel
pump and the fuel gauge so that it gave every appearance of running out of
juice.

Unfortunately it is much harder to fiddle with the wiring of modern cars.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 10 July 2018 at 11:48, James Cameron <***@laptop.org> wrote:

> I've not heard any driver ask for this feature, but many have said it is
> nice, because they can think less as they use the system. Keys in pocket,
> get in car, drive off.
>
> The companies that provided the feature do benefit from new car sales
> after theft. ;-)
>
> On Mon, Jul 09, 2018 at 05:10:25PM +0100, David C Brown wrote:
> > That is how they work. Hence the story of the driver stranded 300 miles
> > from home because he dropped the device in his drive after starting the
> > engine.
> >
> > But, interesting as this technical discussion is, it begs the question of
> > why these devices are becoming so ubiquitous. Are drivers becoming so
> > indolent that pressing the button the key is just far too much effort?
> >
> > __________________________________________
> > David C Brown
> > 43 Bings Road
> > Whaley Bridge
> > High Peak Phone: [phone]
> > Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> > SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> > <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
> >
> >
> >
> > *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
> >
> > On 9 July 2018 at 17:06, Van Horn, David <
> > ***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > So what would happen if you were driving legitimately and the keyfob
> > > battery died?
> > > I'd take exception to a sudden panic stop on the interstate.
> > >
> > > I suspect that once the vehicle is started, that they keep everything
> > > going till the car is shut down again for exactly that reason.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of
> > > Timmothy Relerford
> > > Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 9:50 AM
> > > To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> > > Subject: RE: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> > >
> > >
> > > If the key fob was inside someone's house and a thief used some
> method of
> > > repeating the signal to start the car and drive away, what happens
> after
> > > they get some distance away?
> > > Does the car shut off?
> > > In other words, doesn't that fob signal have to remain in proximity of
> > > the car to keep it going?
> > > After all, if you're the rightful owner, and you have the fob in your
> > > pocket and you get into your car and drive away, no matter where you
> go,
> > > that signal will be in proximity of the car. After all, you're
> sitting in
> > > the front seat.
> > > But if the signal is being repeated, at some point, that signal will
> > > disappear. Will the car turn off now? If it does, then the thief
> would
> > > only get a short distance away before the car stops and he won't be
> able
> > > to get it started again unless he copies the signal and programs a
> piece of
> > > electronic equipment to act as the fob from that point. I guess they
> > > could strip it or tow it after that, but that would seem risky to me.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > > -------- Original Message --------
> > > > Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
> > > > From: Denny Esterline <***@gmail.com>
> > > > Date: Mon, July 09, 2018 10:25 am
> > > > To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <***@mit.edu>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > It seems to me the only way the key fob is going to be able to be
> > > > > copied is if someone presses one of the buttons to transmit the
> > > > > signal. If it is just sitting on a table or hanging on a wall
> hook,
> > > > > how would someone outside the home (or bldg.) cause the key fob to
> > > > > transmit?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > This is a misunderstanding. I cannot claim to know the underlying
> > > > technology, but many new car keyfobs today are "proximity devices".
> > > > Fob in pocket, press button on dash to start car. Definitely do not
> > > > have to press any buttons on the fob.
> > > >
> > > > I've not read Russell's linked article, but I did recently read an
> > > > article claiming thieves were using SDR as a repeater to
> significantly
> > > > boost the range of what the car considers "proximity". The claim was
> > > > with your keys on a hook by your front door, they could use a
> repeater
> > > > outside and drive the car away.
> > > >
> > > > The really fun trick here is they make no effort to capture or crack
> > > > any codes, just boost a signal.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -Denny
> > > > --
> > > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > > View/change your membership options at
> > > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/
> > > mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.netrek.org/
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>
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[RussellMc]

On 10 July 2018 at 23:21, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> Having had my cars broken into on several occasions with several hundred
> pounds worth of damage being caused in order to steal a few pounds worth of
> goods I think that there is much to be said for leaving the vehicle
> unlocked but fitting an immobiliser.


​Best/worst case here, a trio of incompetents ​caused over $2000 of damage
to one of our cars and still did not gain entry. They pitted every window
with a brick and then dented every panel with a length of timber while
trying to break the windows. And broke one wing mirror as a bonus.
Insurance paid for the damage.

They came back some months later and performed random vandalism on a
neighbour's car (letterbox thrown through rear window - landing in bass
speaker system). and I tracked them down :-). Their "modus operandi"
identified them as the original miscreants but I could not easily prove it
was they - but the second time round they got to settle accounts with the
neighbour :-).

Leaving a low cost trackable cellphone in the car also works :-).


Russell
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[John Gardner]

... A cunning immobiliser would
simulate an engine failure after a few minutes driving...

I used to sell & install exactly that, mostly to owners of sports cars,

a small electric fuel pump which tucked away out of sight, with a

hidden switch - Most cars in those days had mechanical fuel pumps.

The scheme was to leave the OEM pump in place, plumbed straight

through - Most carb(s) had enough gas in the bowl(s) to start & run

for a minute or so... It worked well enough, judging by stories of cars

found hot-wired, a block or two from where they'd been left...

...


On 7/10/18, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 10 July 2018 at 23:21, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Having had my cars broken into on several occasions with several hundred
>> pounds worth of damage being caused in order to steal a few pounds worth
>> of
>> goods I think that there is much to be said for leaving the vehicle
>> unlocked but fitting an immobiliser.
>
>
> ​Best/worst case here, a trio of incompetents ​caused over $2000 of damage
> to one of our cars and still did not gain entry. They pitted every window
> with a brick and then dented every panel with a length of timber while
> trying to break the windows. And broke one wing mirror as a bonus.
> Insurance paid for the damage.
>
> They came back some months later and performed random vandalism on a
> neighbour's car (letterbox thrown through rear window - landing in bass
> speaker system). and I tracked them down :-). Their "modus operandi"
> identified them as the original miscreants but I could not easily prove it
> was they - but the second time round they got to settle accounts with the
> neighbour :-).
>
> Leaving a low cost trackable cellphone in the car also works :-).
>
>
> Russell
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>

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[Clint Jay]

I've heard similar stories about cars being broken into for somewhere to
sleep, leaving the car unlocked would
mean you didn't get anything stolen or damaged.

On 10 July 2018 at 13:27, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> ... A cunning immobiliser would
> simulate an engine failure after a few minutes driving...
>
> I used to sell & install exactly that, mostly to owners of sports cars,
>
> a small electric fuel pump which tucked away out of sight, with a
>
> hidden switch - Most cars in those days had mechanical fuel pumps.
>
> The scheme was to leave the OEM pump in place, plumbed straight
>
> through - Most carb(s) had enough gas in the bowl(s) to start & run
>
> for a minute or so... It worked well enough, judging by stories of cars
>
> found hot-wired, a block or two from where they'd been left...
>
> ...
>
>
> On 7/10/18, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 10 July 2018 at 23:21, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Having had my cars broken into on several occasions with several hundred
> >> pounds worth of damage being caused in order to steal a few pounds worth
> >> of
> >> goods I think that there is much to be said for leaving the vehicle
> >> unlocked but fitting an immobiliser.
> >
> >
> > ​Best/worst case here, a trio of incompetents ​caused over $2000 of
> damage
> > to one of our cars and still did not gain entry. They pitted every window
> > with a brick and then dented every panel with a length of timber while
> > trying to break the windows. And broke one wing mirror as a bonus.
> > Insurance paid for the damage.
> >
> > They came back some months later and performed random vandalism on a
> > neighbour's car (letterbox thrown through rear window - landing in bass
> > speaker system). and I tracked them down :-). Their "modus operandi"
> > identified them as the original miscreants but I could not easily prove
> it
> > was they - but the second time round they got to settle accounts with the
> > neighbour :-).
> >
> > Leaving a low cost trackable cellphone in the car also works :-).
> >
> >
> > Russell
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
> --
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> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>



--
Clint. M0UAW IO83

*No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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[David C Brown]

And give you that satisfaction of knowing that you have provided a
comfortable night's sleep to some poor vagrant :-)

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 10 July 2018 at 13:50, Clint Jay <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> I've heard similar stories about cars being broken into for somewhere to
> sleep, leaving the car unlocked would
> mean you didn't get anything stolen or damaged.
>
> On 10 July 2018 at 13:27, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ... A cunning immobiliser would
> > simulate an engine failure after a few minutes driving...
> >
> > I used to sell & install exactly that, mostly to owners of sports cars,
> >
> > a small electric fuel pump which tucked away out of sight, with a
> >
> > hidden switch - Most cars in those days had mechanical fuel pumps.
> >
> > The scheme was to leave the OEM pump in place, plumbed straight
> >
> > through - Most carb(s) had enough gas in the bowl(s) to start & run
> >
> > for a minute or so... It worked well enough, judging by stories of cars
> >
> > found hot-wired, a block or two from where they'd been left...
> >
> > ...
> >
> >
> > On 7/10/18, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On 10 July 2018 at 23:21, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Having had my cars broken into on several occasions with several
> hundred
> > >> pounds worth of damage being caused in order to steal a few pounds
> worth
> > >> of
> > >> goods I think that there is much to be said for leaving the vehicle
> > >> unlocked but fitting an immobiliser.
> > >
> > >
> > > ​Best/worst case here, a trio of incompetents ​caused over $2000 of
> > damage
> > > to one of our cars and still did not gain entry. They pitted every
> window
> > > with a brick and then dented every panel with a length of timber while
> > > trying to break the windows. And broke one wing mirror as a bonus.
> > > Insurance paid for the damage.
> > >
> > > They came back some months later and performed random vandalism on a
> > > neighbour's car (letterbox thrown through rear window - landing in bass
> > > speaker system). and I tracked them down :-). Their "modus operandi"
> > > identified them as the original miscreants but I could not easily prove
> > it
> > > was they - but the second time round they got to settle accounts with
> the
> > > neighbour :-).
> > >
> > > Leaving a low cost trackable cellphone in the car also works :-).
> > >
> > >
> > > Russell
> > > --
> > > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > > View/change your membership options at
> > > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> > >
> >
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Clint. M0UAW IO83
>
> *No trees were harmed in the sending of this mail. However, a large number
> of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
> --
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[David C Brown]

I have since been advised that if such an immobiliser caused the car to
fail in a place where it caused an accident I would be criminally liable
for the damage.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: [phone]
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 10 July 2018 at 13:27, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:

> ... A cunning immobiliser would
> simulate an engine failure after a few minutes driving...
>
> I used to sell & install exactly that, mostly to owners of sports cars,
>
> a small electric fuel pump which tucked away out of sight, with a
>
> hidden switch - Most cars in those days had mechanical fuel pumps.
>
> The scheme was to leave the OEM pump in place, plumbed straight
>
> through - Most carb(s) had enough gas in the bowl(s) to start & run
>
> for a minute or so... It worked well enough, judging by stories of cars
>
> found hot-wired, a block or two from where they'd been left...
>
> ...
>
>
> On 7/10/18, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 10 July 2018 at 23:21, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Having had my cars broken into on several occasions with several hundred
> >> pounds worth of damage being caused in order to steal a few pounds worth
> >> of
> >> goods I think that there is much to be said for leaving the vehicle
> >> unlocked but fitting an immobiliser.
> >
> >
> > ​Best/worst case here, a trio of incompetents ​caused over $2000 of
> damage
> > to one of our cars and still did not gain entry. They pitted every window
> > with a brick and then dented every panel with a length of timber while
> > trying to break the windows. And broke one wing mirror as a bonus.
> > Insurance paid for the damage.
> >
> > They came back some months later and performed random vandalism on a
> > neighbour's car (letterbox thrown through rear window - landing in bass
> > speaker system). and I tracked them down :-). Their "modus operandi"
> > identified them as the original miscreants but I could not easily prove
> it
> > was they - but the second time round they got to settle accounts with the
> > neighbour :-).
> >
> > Leaving a low cost trackable cellphone in the car also works :-).
> >
> >
> > Russell
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
> >
>
> --
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>
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[John Gardner]

...I would be criminally liable...

Sounds about right. My AO was Honolulu, in the '70s & '80s - Auto

theft was an industry; particularly if your marque happened to be

popular with young people - A VW bug, say, wearing comfortable

walking shoes was a good plan...

...


On 7/10/18, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have since been advised that if such an immobiliser caused the car to
> fail in a place where it caused an accident I would be criminally liable
> for the damage.
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: [phone]
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
> On 10 July 2018 at 13:27, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ... A cunning immobiliser would
>> simulate an engine failure after a few minutes driving...
>>
>> I used to sell & install exactly that, mostly to owners of sports cars,
>>
>> a small electric fuel pump which tucked away out of sight, with a
>>
>> hidden switch - Most cars in those days had mechanical fuel pumps.
>>
>> The scheme was to leave the OEM pump in place, plumbed straight
>>
>> through - Most carb(s) had enough gas in the bowl(s) to start & run
>>
>> for a minute or so... It worked well enough, judging by stories of cars
>>
>> found hot-wired, a block or two from where they'd been left...
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>> On 7/10/18, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 10 July 2018 at 23:21, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Having had my cars broken into on several occasions with several
>> >> hundred
>> >> pounds worth of damage being caused in order to steal a few pounds
>> >> worth
>> >> of
>> >> goods I think that there is much to be said for leaving the vehicle
>> >> unlocked but fitting an immobiliser.
>> >
>> >
>> > ​Best/worst case here, a trio of incompetents ​caused over $2000 of
>> damage
>> > to one of our cars and still did not gain entry. They pitted every
>> > window
>> > with a brick and then dented every panel with a length of timber while
>> > trying to break the windows. And broke one wing mirror as a bonus.
>> > Insurance paid for the damage.
>> >
>> > They came back some months later and performed random vandalism on a
>> > neighbour's car (letterbox thrown through rear window - landing in bass
>> > speaker system). and I tracked them down :-). Their "modus operandi"
>> > identified them as the original miscreants but I could not easily prove
>> it
>> > was they - but the second time round they got to settle accounts with
>> > the
>> > neighbour :-).
>> >
>> > Leaving a low cost trackable cellphone in the car also works :-).
>> >
>> >
>> > Russell
>> > --
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[Van Horn, David]

VBG! I lived in Ewa Beach in the 70's and 80's.
I always wondered how it was that a lot of cops lived out in Nanakuli, Waianae, and Makaha, and lots of stolen cars were eventually recovered from those areas.
One road in and out...

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of John Gardner
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 7:36 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

...I would be criminally liable...

Sounds about right. My AO was Honolulu, in the '70s & '80s - Auto

theft was an industry; particularly if your marque happened to be

popular with young people - A VW bug, say, wearing comfortable

walking shoes was a good plan...

...


On 7/10/18, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have since been advised that if such an immobiliser caused the car
> to fail in a place where it caused an accident I would be criminally
> liable for the damage.
>
> __________________________________________
> David C Brown
> 43 Bings Road
> Whaley Bridge
> High Peak Phone: [phone]
> Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
> SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
> <http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
>
>
>
> *Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
>
> On 10 July 2018 at 13:27, John Gardner <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> ... A cunning immobiliser would
>> simulate an engine failure after a few minutes driving...
>>
>> I used to sell & install exactly that, mostly to owners of sports
>> cars,
>>
>> a small electric fuel pump which tucked away out of sight, with a
>>
>> hidden switch - Most cars in those days had mechanical fuel pumps.
>>
>> The scheme was to leave the OEM pump in place, plumbed straight
>>
>> through - Most carb(s) had enough gas in the bowl(s) to start & run
>>
>> for a minute or so... It worked well enough, judging by stories of
>> cars
>>
>> found hot-wired, a block or two from where they'd been left...
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>> On 7/10/18, RussellMc <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On 10 July 2018 at 23:21, David C Brown <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Having had my cars broken into on several occasions with several
>> >> hundred pounds worth of damage being caused in order to steal a
>> >> few pounds worth of goods I think that there is much to be said
>> >> for leaving the vehicle unlocked but fitting an immobiliser.
>> >
>> >
>> > ​Best/worst case here, a trio of incompetents ​caused over $2000
>> > of
>> damage
>> > to one of our cars and still did not gain entry. They pitted every
>> > window with a brick and then dented every panel with a length of
>> > timber while trying to break the windows. And broke one wing mirror
>> > as a bonus.
>> > Insurance paid for the damage.
>> >
>> > They came back some months later and performed random vandalism on
>> > a neighbour's car (letterbox thrown through rear window - landing
>> > in bass speaker system). and I tracked them down :-). Their "modus operandi"
>> > identified them as the original miscreants but I could not easily
>> > prove
>> it
>> > was they - but the second time round they got to settle accounts
>> > with the neighbour :-).
>> >
>> > Leaving a low cost trackable cellphone in the car also works :-).
>> >
>> >
>> > Russell
>> > --
>> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
>> > View/change your membership options at
>> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
>> >
>>
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[Van Horn, David]

http://www.on4sh.be/aprs/news.htm

It's entertaining when the stolen vehicle is constantly beaconing its position.

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[John Gardner]

...Nanakuli, Waianae, and Makaha...One road in and out...

Yep. Angel's Towing ring a bell? "8)

On 7/10/18, Van Horn, David <***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> http://www.on4sh.be/aprs/news.htm
>
> It's entertaining when the stolen vehicle is constantly beaconing its
> position.
>
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[Van Horn, David]

That's some DRAM that hasn't been refreshed in a while! 😊

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of John Gardner
Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:19 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

...Nanakuli, Waianae, and Makaha...One road in and out...

Yep. Angel's Towing ring a bell? "8)

On 7/10/18, Van Horn, David <***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> http://www.on4sh.be/aprs/news.htm
>
> It's entertaining when the stolen vehicle is constantly beaconing its
> position.
>
> --
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[John Gardner]

Yeah, its been awhile - I wonder who's got the stolen car export

concession these days?

On 7/10/18, Van Horn, David <***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
> That's some DRAM that hasn't been refreshed in a while! 😊
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of John
> Gardner
> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 9:19 AM
> To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
> Subject: Re: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil
>
> ...Nanakuli, Waianae, and Makaha...One road in and out...
>
> Yep. Angel's Towing ring a bell? "8)
>
> On 7/10/18, Van Horn, David <***@backcountryaccess.com> wrote:
>> http://www.on4sh.be/aprs/news.htm
>>
>> It's entertaining when the stolen vehicle is constantly beaconing its
>> position.
>>
>> --
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[AB Pearce - UKRI STFC]

And after all this discussion, people do things that make having a key fob useless ...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=12087265

Reminds me of some of the old vans that existed when I was a kid, no keys required, who would want to steal a Jowett Van ???



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[RussellMc]

​
On 12 July 2018 at 00:46, AB Pearce - UKRI STFC <***@stfc.ac.uk>
wrote:

> And after all this discussion, people do things that make having a key fob
> useless ...
>
> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_
> id=6&objectid=12087265
>
>
My brother drove the wrong "Mini" to town and back from about 10km away.
The 'right' car belonged to his company and the other, parked nearby, was
probably a privately owned vehicle.

He had no trouble opening and starting it for the trip to town but when he
tried to make the return journey he had trouble inserting the key in the
ignition switch. At that stage he realised

Russell


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[Van Horn, David]

Straight out of John Norman's books. There's an affordance for leaving the keys in the vehicle, and no forcing function to prevent it.

In ham radio we are supposed to use the minimum power needed to make the contact.
On most radios there's a power setting control. If you can't make the hop you crank up the power. A nice forcing function.
However, there's nothing that encourages you, much less forces you, to turn the power down.
So guess where the power controls end up sitting?


-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of AB Pearce - UKRI STFC
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 6:46 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: RE: [EE]:: Wrapping key-FOBs in tinfoil

And after all this discussion, people do things that make having a key fob useless ...

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=12087265

Reminds me of some of the old vans that existed when I was a kid, no keys required, who would want to steal a Jowett Van ???



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[Van Horn, David]

I used to get a lot of call to put alarms in convertibles.
I had customers literally begging me to install systems for them.
I never could see the point. I told them it's silly to even lock a convertible, you're just going to loose the top in addition to whatever the thief wants.

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