Discussion:
[EE] Voltage regulation high voltage very low current
Bob Blick
2018-11-16 04:11:44 UTC
Permalink
Suppose I repurpose a handheld electronic flyswatter power supply as a high voltage DC bias supply. These things generate over 600 volts from 3 volts using a circuit very similar to those in disposable camera xenon flashes(uses a transformer with three terminals on the primary, two on the secondary plus one transistor, one diode and a few resistors and capacitors).

But I want a lower, regulated output voltage, +-5 percent is fine.

How do I do this without drawing a lot of current? Even 1 mA at 500V is going to consume gobs of juice. So no shunt regulators, either.

Can I get decent enough regulation by basing it on the flyback voltage in the primary?

Any ideas would be welcome.

Thanks, Bob
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Manu Abraham
2018-11-16 04:52:57 UTC
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Hi Bob,

A combination of primary side regulation along with HV regulation
might work quite well.

I came up on this thread:
https://rimstar.org/science_electronics_projects/electric_fly_swatter_zapper_racket.htm

If it is possible to increase the output power by changing the
resistor, decreasing it also would probably be fine.

Saw a discussion on EDN. goo.gl/6iN9wN
That could fire off some neurons. The BU508A is used in old CRT TV
set's can go up to about 700V

Cheers,
Manu
On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:43 AM Bob Blick <***@outlook.com> wrote:
>
> Suppose I repurpose a handheld electronic flyswatter power supply as a high voltage DC bias supply. These things generate over 600 volts from 3 volts using a circuit very similar to those in disposable camera xenon flashes(uses a transformer with three terminals on the primary, two on the secondary plus one transistor, one diode and a few resistors and capacitors).
>
> But I want a lower, regulated output voltage, +-5 percent is fine.
>
> How do I do this without drawing a lot of current? Even 1 mA at 500V is going to consume gobs of juice. So no shunt regulators, either.
>
> Can I get decent enough regulation by basing it on the flyback voltage in the primary?
>
> Any ideas would be welcome.
>
> Thanks, Bob
> --
> http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> View/change your membership options at
> http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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Bob Blick
2018-11-16 05:25:00 UTC
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Hi Manu,

I guess I could make a low-current voltage comparator on the secondary with many megohm voltage divider comparing against a low voltage reference and use that for feedback. Thanks for the links!

Bob

________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of Manu Abraham
Sent: Thursday, November 15, 2018 8:52 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Voltage regulation high voltage very low current

Hi Bob,

A combination of primary side regulation along with HV regulation
might work quite well.

I came up on this thread:
https://rimstar.org/science_electronics_projects/electric_fly_swatter_zapper_racket.htm

If it is possible to increase the output power by changing the
resistor, decreasing it also would probably be fine.

Saw a discussion on EDN. goo.gl/6iN9wN
That could fire off some neurons. The BU508A is used in old CRT TV
set's can go up to about 700V

Cheers,
Manu

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David Van Horn
2018-11-16 13:08:54 UTC
Permalink
They do make higher voltage Zeners, which could also minimize the wasted power.
Then regulation could be as simple as turning the flyback on and off if your regulation needs are simple and the output cap big enough.

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Manu Abraham
2018-11-16 15:35:09 UTC
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Bob,

Some additional thoughts on the same lines ..

You can wrap a few turns of copper wire on top of the transformer that
already exists. (2 or 3 turns, enough to drive the transistor.) The
coupling is not a big issue, but try to make the winding as tight as
possible to get maximum possible coupling. Since there is hardly very
little current drawn, it's not an issue at all. This winding you can
be consider as an auxiliary winding.

If you have a LCR meter you can check and compare the inductance of
the primary to the auxiliary, so that the primary and the auxiliary to
be a 1:1 ratio. It's not absolutely necessary that you need a 1:1
ratio, but you will get a reference for your calculations for the
feedback. The winding you can use as a reference to control the
primary side PWM, to avoid looking for high voltage components.

Cost wise this would be more efficient, as it cost you peanuts, as all
components are low voltage components itself. Also, you might have all
the components around you.The auxiliary winding can drive a small
transistor to control the base drive for the Power Transistor. You
will have some fiddling to do, but would be a very nice mod, maybe you
can probably fit the mod on the same flyswatter board itself. Saves a
lot of work for another PCB too..

Maybe that would be a less than 1 USD Mod! :-)

Cheers,
Manu



On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 10:22 AM Manu Abraham <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob,
>
> A combination of primary side regulation along with HV regulation
> might work quite well.
>
> I came up on this thread:
> https://rimstar.org/science_electronics_projects/electric_fly_swatter_zapper_racket.htm
>
> If it is possible to increase the output power by changing the
> resistor, decreasing it also would probably be fine.
>
> Saw a discussion on EDN. goo.gl/6iN9wN
> That could fire off some neurons. The BU508A is used in old CRT TV
> set's can go up to about 700V
>
> Cheers,
> Manu
> On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:43 AM Bob Blick <***@outlook.com> wrote:
> >
> > Suppose I repurpose a handheld electronic flyswatter power supply as a high voltage DC bias supply. These things generate over 600 volts from 3 volts using a circuit very similar to those in disposable camera xenon flashes(uses a transformer with three terminals on the primary, two on the secondary plus one transistor, one diode and a few resistors and capacitors).
> >
> > But I want a lower, regulated output voltage, +-5 percent is fine.
> >
> > How do I do this without drawing a lot of current? Even 1 mA at 500V is going to consume gobs of juice. So no shunt regulators, either.
> >
> > Can I get decent enough regulation by basing it on the flyback voltage in the primary?
> >
> > Any ideas would be welcome.
> >
> > Thanks, Bob
> > --
> > http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
> > View/change your membership options at
> > http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

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Manu Abraham
2018-11-16 15:55:32 UTC
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On Fri, Nov 16, 2018 at 9:05 PM Manu Abraham <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> Some additional thoughts on the same lines ..
>
> You can wrap a few turns of copper wire on top of the transformer that
> already exists. (2 or 3 turns, enough to drive the transistor.) The
> coupling is not a big issue, but try to make the winding as tight as
> possible to get maximum possible coupling. Since there is hardly very
> little current drawn, it's not an issue at all. This winding you can
> be consider as an auxiliary winding.
>
> If you have a LCR meter you can check and compare the inductance of
> the primary to the auxiliary, so that the primary and the auxiliary to
> be a 1:1 ratio. It's not absolutely necessary that you need a 1:1
> ratio, but you will get a reference for your calculations for the
> feedback. The winding you can use as a reference to control the
> primary side PWM, to avoid looking for high voltage components.

Scratch the PWM in there, replace it with Oscillations. There's no PWM
in a Joule thief. One hemisphere not keeping up fast with the other.
;-)

Cheers,
Manu
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RussellMc
2018-11-16 10:54:29 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 16 Nov 2018 at 17:13, Bob Blick <***@outlook.com> wrote:

> Suppose I repurpose a handheld electronic flyswatter power supply as a
> high voltage DC bias supply.
>

I'd expect flyback primary peak to be potentially* quite a good indicator.
(*pun noticed).

Shunt regulator that shuts off when desired voltage is reached after an
input pulse?

Electrostatic methods?
Force on an earthed cap plate MAY be measurable.


___________________


I've been told that these are generally low efficiency. May not be true.

Some bar code scanner HeNe LASERs had built in power supplies.
These probably used multiplier strings which could be truncated as desired.

Vehicle ignition transformer?

Distributorless coil-per-plug units are nicely compact. Efficiency unknown.
Bias voltage may be "a tad high" :-)

Russell
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