[EE] Parallel Port nSelect pin relay driver

[James Newton]

Ok, first, let me just remind everyone that I'm almost totally clueless when
it comes to analog electronics. Years ago, I took classes in the Navy on
transistors and I sort of understood it... back then...

I'm trying to drive a small 5 volt relay from a pin on a PC parallel port.

The circuit I'm trying is right out of the PICList archive / FAQ at:
http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/relays.htm more specifically at
Loading Image... but it is for a PIC, not the
PC parallel port, and certainly not for nStrobe, which is one of the weaker
lines on the port. This is probably the cause of my troubles, but I don't
know how to fix it. The attached is the actual circuit.

RELAY: OMRON G5LE-1 DC5 According to the datasheet:
https://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/187151.pdf it has a coil
resistance of 63 Ohms. I have a 1N4148 connected backward over the coil to
prevent kick back.

PC: Parallel Port pin 1: nStrobe is the line that I need to use to drive
this relay. It is supposed to be driven, in the parallel port hardware, by
the equivalent of a 7405 inverting open collector buffer, pulled to +5 volts
via a 4.7K resistor.
http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/parallel/signals.htm

I have a 2N3904 transistor with the emitter connected to ground, the base to
the nStrobe signal from the PC parallel port and the collector is connected
to the relay coil. The other end of the coil is connected to +5VDC.

When the nStrobe line is not connected to the circuit, using a program on
the PC to toggle the pin, I can get 0.009 - 5.07 VDC on the pin as read by
my multi-meter.

When the circuit is connected, and powered up, I get 0.010 - 0.657 VDC and
the relay does not close.

I attached a potentiometer between the base an +5 and turned it until the
relay just activated, then backed it off and tried toggling the nStrobe
line. At that point I was able to control the relay from the PC port, but
removing the pot and measuring its value showed that it was 203Ohms. Not K
Ohms; Ohms. That ain't going to cut it.

The parallel port appears undamaged. The relay and transistor do switch and
the power supply seems to work ok, but 200 Ohms cannot possibly be ok. I
don't understand how that failed to destroy the port... My old PC must have
some sort of current limiting built in.

I had previously been advised (thank you friend) that I might have better
luck in a different configuration using a BC337-40, but that was a different
circuit entirely. The point of this new circuit is to avoid the extra cost
of the more dear transistor. If I have to use it, so be it, but since I'm
totally clueless, I figured I should ask for help before trying anything
more.

HELP?

James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
mailto:jamesnewton-***@public.gmane.org 1-619-652-0593 phone
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com

[Jinx]

I attached a potentiometer between the base and +5 and turned it
until the relay just activated, then backed it off and tried toggling
the nStrobe line. At that point I was able to control the relay from
the PC port, but removing the pot and measuring its value showed
that it was 203Ohms. Not K Ohms; Ohms. That ain't going to cut it

That doesn't sound right. You might expect a current gain of 100 from
the transistor. It needs to pass about 75mA for the relay to pull in, =>
about 0.75mA into the base. Your experiment suggests more like
25mA is need (for some reason), which you won't get from a parallel
port pin. The 4k7 pullup would supply 1mA

[Timothy J. Weber]

Post by James Newton
When the nStrobe line is not connected to the circuit, using a program on
the PC to toggle the pin, I can get 0.009 - 5.07 VDC on the pin as read by
my multi-meter.
When the circuit is connected, and powered up, I get 0.010 - 0.657 VDC and
the relay does not close.
I attached a potentiometer between the base an +5 and turned it until the
relay just activated, then backed it off and tried toggling the nStrobe
line. At that point I was able to control the relay from the PC port, but
removing the pot and measuring its value showed that it was 203Ohms. Not K
Ohms; Ohms. That ain't going to cut it.

Sounds like insufficient base current? I would try putting an NMOSFET
in there instead of the NPN.

[Jinx]

BTW, you have got the transistor wired up right ?

[James Newton]

That assumes so much...

Err... on a TO-92 case, the base is the middle one, right? How do you know
which is the emitter and which is the collector?

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Jinx
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 18:16
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Parallel Port nSelect pin relay driver

BTW, you have got the transistor wired up right ?

[Apptech]

Post by James Newton
Err... on a TO-92 case, the base is the middle one, right?
How do you know
which is the emitter and which is the collector?

Post by Jinx
BTW, you have got the transistor wired up right ?

Varies with type.
All are variants of bce and ebc plus reversals.

Look in datasheet for the type you are using.
Digikey are a quick way to access data sheets for many
parts.

There are complexities but few matter here.

Brief:
Transistor supported collector current is base current x
current gain.
Current gain is call Beta.
Base current ~~= (Vdrive-0.6)/Rbase

or Rbase <= (Vdrive-0.6)/ base current

~~= (Vdrive-0.6)/ (relay_current/Beta)

For say 100 mA relay current and conservative Beta = 50 or
more (OK for many small transistors)

Rbase <=~~~ (5-0.6)/(100mA/50) = 2200R

So use a 1K base drive AND connect the transistor correctly
and it should work.

Many/most multimeters have a beta tester included. Socket
labelled cbec or whatever.

- Establish probable connection pattern.
- Test with meter beta tester.

Beta should be say > 100 and ideally 200+ at current used by
meter


Russell McMahon

[Jinx]

Post by James Newton
Err... on a TO-92 case, the base is the middle one, right?

Not always, but generally. Although if you're used to working with
particular parts it may be that those *do not* have b in the middle,
so then "generally" would not be true

Post by James Newton
How do you know which is the emitter and which is the collector?

You could check against this

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf

As an established industry part, what you have probably conforms

Double-check

http://users.otenet.gr/~ATHSAM/theory/Transistor_test_type_and_polarity_eng.
htm

Maybe your multimeter has a transistor tester built in ?

[William "Chops" Westfield]

Post by Jinx

Post by James Newton
Err... on a TO-92 case, the base is the middle one, right?

Not always, but generally. Although if you're used to working with
particular parts it may be that those *do not* have b in the middle,
so then "generally" would not be true

Post by James Newton
How do you know which is the emitter and which is the collector?

You could check against this
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf

The point is that a transistor will work with E/C connections
reversed, but it works poorly that way. Which is approximately what
you're seeing...

With an open-collector pin like you have, I'd be inclined to use a
PNP transistor in a high-side driver configuration (and reversed
logic in the SW.) (4.3V)/(4.7k+4.7k) = 0.9mA of base current, which
is less than I'd like when turning on an NPN transistor (it SHOULD be
sufficient, but it's out of the "comfortable" range.)

BillW

[James Newton]

"High side driver" means....

Emitter to +Vcc and Collector to the coil with the other side to ground?

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
William "Chops" Westfield
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 20:30
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Parallel Port nSelect pin relay driver

Post by Jinx

Post by James Newton
Err... on a TO-92 case, the base is the middle one, right?

Not always, but generally. Although if you're used to working with
particular parts it may be that those *do not* have b in the middle,
so then "generally" would not be true

Post by James Newton
How do you know which is the emitter and which is the collector?

You could check against this
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf

The point is that a transistor will work with E/C connections
reversed, but it works poorly that way. Which is approximately what
you're seeing...

With an open-collector pin like you have, I'd be inclined to use a
PNP transistor in a high-side driver configuration (and reversed
logic in the SW.) (4.3V)/(4.7k+4.7k) = 0.9mA of base current, which
is less than I'd like when turning on an NPN transistor (it SHOULD be
sufficient, but it's out of the "comfortable" range.)

BillW

[William "Chops" Westfield]

Post by James Newton
"High side driver" means....
Emitter to +Vcc and Collector to the coil with the other side to ground?

Yep.

BillW

[alan smith]

I've resorted to using the NUDxxxx series of relay drivers from ON semi. It has the built in diode protection, logic level drivers, and its designed to be used for solenoid or relay drive. Albiet its a little more expensive than using a NPN, resistor and diode, it takes up less room and its the correct part for the job. I've retrofitted several designs that were having problems with the other Q/R/D method and never had a problem since.

Post by James Newton
"High side driver" means....
Emitter to +Vcc and Collector to the coil with the other side to ground?

Yep.

BillW
--
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

[James Newton]

Yep, I have it in backwards.

I'll re-solder it later tonight or Wednesday.

Thanks!

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Jinx
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 19:39
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Parallel Port nSelect pin relay driver

Post by James Newton
Err... on a TO-92 case, the base is the middle one, right?

Not always, but generally. Although if you're used to working with
particular parts it may be that those *do not* have b in the middle,
so then "generally" would not be true

Post by James Newton
How do you know which is the emitter and which is the collector?

You could check against this

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf

As an established industry part, what you have probably conforms

Double-check

http://users.otenet.gr/~ATHSAM/theory/Transistor_test_type_and_polarity_eng.
htm

Maybe your multimeter has a transistor tester built in ?

[Jinx]

Post by James Newton
Yep, I have it in backwards.

If it's any comfort, I might have put it in backwards too. All of
the signal transistors I use (BCxxx) are ebc, rather than your cbe

Last week I put a load of regulators in "badly" after glancing at
the wrong datasheet. Originally I intended 78L05s, which are
OGI (oddly, the reverse face view of the 7805), for the board,
then substituted S81250 LDOs, which are GIO. Whoooopsie

Luckily there was no accompanying smell, that one we don't like

[Alan B. Pearce]

Post by Jinx
If it's any comfort, I might have put it in backwards too. All of
the signal transistors I use (BCxxx) are ebc, rather than your cbe

I do remember having some BC167/8/9 which were bec IIRC ... They were
roughly equivalent to BC147/8/9 series but in a slightly different case and
the different pinout.

[William "Chops" Westfield]

Post by Jinx
If it's any comfort, I might have put it in backwards too. All of
the signal transistors I use (BCxxx) are ebc, rather than your cbe

Is there a standard for naming? I would normally look at the
transistor with the flat side facing me (so that I could read the
type), and thus call the 3904 an "EBC" transistor (which is the most
common in the US.) And yet, the fairchild picture shows the
transistor "upside down" (by my reckoning), and I've seen other data
sheets that first NUMBER the leads (3,2,1 as I look at them) and make
you got through another level of possible error inducing lookup as
you find which number fits which function.

Sigh.
BillW

[Jinx]

Is there a standard for naming ?

I don't know if there is. Fairchild showing the transistor just
from the back, and orthogonally too, is a little unusual. Often
a plan view indicating from top or bottom would be used as
well

[Alan B. Pearce]

Post by Jinx

Is there a standard for naming ?

I don't know if there is. Fairchild showing the transistor just
from the back, and orthogonally too, is a little unusual. Often
a plan view indicating from top or bottom would be used as
well

The defacto standard used to be to show a transistor from the bottom
(looking at the pins), as you would look at laying out tape for a single
sided PCB. Minimised errors due to such confusion, but these days it seems
anything goes, because such PCB layout work is done using electronic means,
which tends to be done looking at the top ('component') side. I guess using
an orthogonal view is an attempt to minimise this confusion.

[Apptech]

Is there a standard for naming ?

No.
Various manufacturers MAY have a semi standard in their own
data sheets but even these vary with time or within the
organisation.

Shown from top or bottom.
123 or 321 left to right.
or CBE marked as appropriate.
Long ago SOME had CBE moulded into case but not the norm.


Russell

[James Newton]

Works like a champ when you solder in the transistor right way around!

Thanks to all for the suggestions and to Jinx especially for catching the
likely error. Sadly, the board is marked wrong...

But so far, that is the only problem I've found with the new boards and kit:
http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/stepper/linistep/4axis3build.htm

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
James Newton
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 20:52
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.'
Subject: RE: [EE] Parallel Port nSelect pin relay driver

Yep, I have it in backwards.

I'll re-solder it later tonight or Wednesday.

Thanks!

--
James.

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-bounces-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of
Jinx
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 19:39
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Parallel Port nSelect pin relay driver

Post by James Newton
Err... on a TO-92 case, the base is the middle one, right?

Not always, but generally. Although if you're used to working with
particular parts it may be that those *do not* have b in the middle,
so then "generally" would not be true

Post by James Newton
How do you know which is the emitter and which is the collector?

You could check against this

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/2N/2N3904.pdf

As an established industry part, what you have probably conforms

Double-check

http://users.otenet.gr/~ATHSAM/theory/Transistor_test_type_and_polarity_eng.
htm

Maybe your multimeter has a transistor tester built in ?
--
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

[Dennis Crawley]

On Sunday, May 18, 2008 11:01 PM [GMT-3=CET],

Post by James Newton
That assumes so much...
Err... on a TO-92 case, the base is the middle one,
right? How do you know which is the emitter and which is
the collector?

from datasheet? :)

[Forrest W Christian]

I haven't had a chance to read everyone else's comments, but my
recommendation would be to replace the NPN with a 2n7000.

-forrest

Post by James Newton
Ok, first, let me just remind everyone that I'm almost totally clueless when
it comes to analog electronics. Years ago, I took classes in the Navy on
transistors and I sort of understood it... back then...
I'm trying to drive a small 5 volt relay from a pin on a PC parallel port.
http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/relays.htm more specifically at
http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/relay9v.gif but it is for a PIC, not the
PC parallel port, and certainly not for nStrobe, which is one of the weaker
lines on the port. This is probably the cause of my troubles, but I don't
know how to fix it. The attached is the actual circuit.
https://www.jameco.com/Jameco/Products/ProdDS/187151.pdf it has a coil
resistance of 63 Ohms. I have a 1N4148 connected backward over the coil to
prevent kick back.
PC: Parallel Port pin 1: nStrobe is the line that I need to use to drive
this relay. It is supposed to be driven, in the parallel port hardware, by
the equivalent of a 7405 inverting open collector buffer, pulled to +5 volts
via a 4.7K resistor.
http://www.piclist.com/techref/io/parallel/signals.htm
I have a 2N3904 transistor with the emitter connected to ground, the base to
the nStrobe signal from the PC parallel port and the collector is connected
to the relay coil. The other end of the coil is connected to +5VDC.
When the nStrobe line is not connected to the circuit, using a program on
the PC to toggle the pin, I can get 0.009 - 5.07 VDC on the pin as read by
my multi-meter.
When the circuit is connected, and powered up, I get 0.010 - 0.657 VDC and
the relay does not close.
I attached a potentiometer between the base an +5 and turned it until the
relay just activated, then backed it off and tried toggling the nStrobe
line. At that point I was able to control the relay from the PC port, but
removing the pot and measuring its value showed that it was 203Ohms. Not K
Ohms; Ohms. That ain't going to cut it.
The parallel port appears undamaged. The relay and transistor do switch and
the power supply seems to work ok, but 200 Ohms cannot possibly be ok. I
don't understand how that failed to destroy the port... My old PC must have
some sort of current limiting built in.
I had previously been advised (thank you friend) that I might have better
luck in a different configuration using a BC337-40, but that was a different
circuit entirely. The point of this new circuit is to avoid the extra cost
of the more dear transistor. If I have to use it, so be it, but since I'm
totally clueless, I figured I should ask for help before trying anything
more.
HELP?
James Newton: PICList webmaster/Admin
http://www.piclist.com/member/JMN-EFP-786
PIC/PICList FAQ: http://www.piclist.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Forrest W Christian]

Post by Forrest W Christian
I haven't had a chance to read everyone else's comments, but my
recommendation would be to replace the NPN with a 2n7000.

Oh, and now I've read the rest of the thread... the 2n7000 has the nice
side effect that if you get it in backwards, the body diode will pull
the relay down making it pretty obvious that it's in backwards.

-forrest

[Peter]

I also have the pinout problem sometimes. I use two solutions: for large qty and
board design, get the datasheet. For one offs, often from the junkbox, *always*
check with a DVM that has a transistor testing socket. The transistor cannot be
destroyed by putting it in backwards in a transistor tester and you also get a
true reading of beta as a bonus. Beta under 5 means it's in backwards. Normal
readings are >50 and can reach hundreds. A DVM with transistor test starts from
about $15. Finally: there are TO92 parts with the same part number, from
different manufacturers, with *different* pinouts (e.g. normal BC547 with
injected epoxy body, and ultra cheap BC547 with 'filled' body). *Never* trust
the datasheet, always check the actual parts to be used, especially before
sending out the board design ...

Peter

[Al Shinn]

So, does anyone have any suggestions as to how to make the parallel port
behave under XP with BASIC?
It's the only language I know and it sure doesn't work for running the
port as I used to be able to do. I have a tiny old Vaio that I can boot
off of the floppy with DOS but that's a pain as the computer can't see
its own hard drive so the DOS and the QBASIC and my program AND any data
I collect has to fit on the floppy.

[Dr Skip]

Just an update - I've ditched Vista... After hours and hours watching it
install sp1, then uninstall it for some error, I couldn't take it any more! I
tried every possible change to get it to work, but there seems to be a high
proportion of users with new machines that can't install sp1. The only step
left was a wipe and start fresh to try that. No way...

XP runs very fast and fine on this Acer, and their XP drivers are all fine. A
few hours to get the system the way I like vs the 2 weeks it took with Vista.

I should've done this day one!! And I highly recommend it to anyone! ;)

[John Chung]

I hear plenty of negative comments on Vista. I do
wonder if it*Vista itself* is just going to go away.
FYI I am using XP and loving it.

John Chung

Post by Dr Skip
Just an update - I've ditched Vista... After hours
and hours watching it
install sp1, then uninstall it for some error, I
couldn't take it any more! I
tried every possible change to get it to work, but
there seems to be a high
proportion of users with new machines that can't
install sp1. The only step
left was a wipe and start fresh to try that. No
way...
XP runs very fast and fine on this Acer, and their
XP drivers are all fine. A
few hours to get the system the way I like vs the 2
weeks it took with Vista.
I should've done this day one!! And I highly
recommend it to anyone! ;)
--
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

[Xiaofan Chen]

Post by John Chung
I hear plenty of negative comments on Vista. I do
wonder if it*Vista itself* is just going to go away.
FYI I am using XP and loving it.

Vista will not just go away so soon but hopefully
XP can stay longer or the new Windows 7 will come
out earlier.

Xiaofan

[Apptech]

Post by Xiaofan Chen
Vista will not just go away so soon but hopefully
XP can stay longer or the new Windows 7 will come
out earlier.

Win7:Vista = Vista:XP ? :-)


R

[Picbits Sales]

I'd bin Vista from my laptop in a flash if it wasn't for the fact that I'd
have to spend 1/4 of what I paid for the laptop for a legitimate copy of XP.
I've already paid for a copy of a crap OS so I refuse to line Micro$ofts
pockets a second time. I have Ubuntu installed as a dual boot and although
its running in VESA mode and I don't get the proper resolution its a hell of
a lot more stable than Vista.

I've had nothing but problems with it from day one and I'm about to build a
Linux server to hold all my backup data between the workshop and the house
as Vista will not talk to any of my NAS devices.

Hey ho

Dom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dr Skip" <drskip-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 6:21 AM
Subject: [EE] Vista/XP update

Post by Dr Skip
Just an update - I've ditched Vista... After hours and hours watching it
install sp1, then uninstall it for some error, I couldn't take it any more! I
tried every possible change to get it to work, but there seems to be a high
proportion of users with new machines that can't install sp1. The only step
left was a wipe and start fresh to try that. No way...
XP runs very fast and fine on this Acer, and their XP drivers are all fine. A
few hours to get the system the way I like vs the 2 weeks it took with Vista.
I should've done this day one!! And I highly recommend it to anyone! ;)
--
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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16:45

[Apptech]

Post by Picbits Sales
I'd bin Vista from my laptop in a flash if it wasn't for
the fact that I'd
have to spend 1/4 of what I paid for the laptop for a
legitimate copy of XP.

You are entitled to load XP for free IF you have either of
the top Vista versions (Vista Pro, ...). If you have a Vista
Home version it MAY be cheaper to pay for an upgrade to
Vista Pro so you can then legally UPgrade to XP Pro.


Russell

[Dario Greggio]

Post by Apptech
You are entitled to load XP for free IF you have either of
the top Vista versions (Vista Pro, ...). If you have a Vista
Home version it MAY be cheaper to pay for an upgrade to
Vista Pro so you can then legally UPgrade to XP Pro.

yep, I agree on this

[Picbits Sales]

Vista Home Basic I'm afraid :-(

When this laptop is fully supported by a Linux release I'll probably go that
route.

Dom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Apptech" <apptech-wUU9E3n5/m4qAMOr+***@public.gmane.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 12:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EE] Vista/XP update

Post by Apptech

Post by Picbits Sales
I'd bin Vista from my laptop in a flash if it wasn't for
the fact that I'd
have to spend 1/4 of what I paid for the laptop for a
legitimate copy of XP.

You are entitled to load XP for free IF you have either of
the top Vista versions (Vista Pro, ...). If you have a Vista
Home version it MAY be cheaper to pay for an upgrade to
Vista Pro so you can then legally UPgrade to XP Pro.
Russell
--
http://www.piclist.com PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 269.23.21/1457 - Release Date: 20/05/2008
16:45

[Alex Harford]

Have you enabled the 'restricted' repositories and tried the binary
drivers? I had to do that for my desktop with an NVidia card. Can't
seem to find the page I bookmarked that had the step-by-step
instructions.

Post by Picbits Sales
Vista Home Basic I'm afraid :-(
When this laptop is fully supported by a Linux release I'll probably go that
route.

[Picbits Sales]

I've got it running using some rather weird and wonderful means but the
graphics card is not currently supported under Linux and there is no
alternative driver I can use other than the standard slow VESA driver. I can
run in almost full resolution but not quite so the definition of the
graphics isn't as sharp as it would be under its native resolution.

However as its free software I can't complain
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Harford" <harford-***@public.gmane.org>
To: "Microcontroller discussion list - Public." <piclist-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2008 7:06 PM
Subject: Re: [EE] Vista/XP update

Post by Alex Harford
Have you enabled the 'restricted' repositories and tried the binary
drivers? I had to do that for my desktop with an NVidia card. Can't
seem to find the page I bookmarked that had the step-by-step
instructions.

Post by Picbits Sales
Vista Home Basic I'm afraid :-(
When this laptop is fully supported by a Linux release I'll probably go that
route.

--
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16:45

[Herbert Graf]

Post by Picbits Sales
Vista Home Basic I'm afraid :-(
When this laptop is fully supported by a Linux release I'll probably go that
route.

What specifically on your machine doesn't work with Linux?

Assuming you've tried Ubuntu, have you enabled the restricted drivers?

TTYL

[Harold Hallikainen]

Post by Herbert Graf

Post by Picbits Sales
Vista Home Basic I'm afraid :-(
When this laptop is fully supported by a Linux release I'll probably go that
route.

What specifically on your machine doesn't work with Linux?
Assuming you've tried Ubuntu, have you enabled the restricted drivers?

I'm running Fedora8 on my HP laptop, and it's working well, and just keeps
getting better. For a long time, it did not know how to talk to the SD/MMC
card slot. A couple weeks ago, I could not find my little USB SD reader,
so, for the fun of it, I plugged the card into the internal reader. And,
it worked! So, at this point, all hardware on my HP laptop is working
under Fedora 8. This weekend I'm going to give Fedora 9 a try on it.

My server is still running Fedora4. I'll try making a drive image, do an
upgrade to Fedora 9 and see if I lost anything. If so, I can go back to
the image. I've hand tweaked so many config files on the server that I'm
afraid an upgrade might break something. But, with a good backup, I'll
give it a try. Should be a fun three day weekend.

Harold

[peter green]

Post by Apptech
You are entitled to load XP for free IF you have either of
the top Vista versions (Vista Pro, ...).

Afaict that only applies to OEM and volume license copies of buisness
and ultimate not retail or retail upgrade copies.

[Apptech]

Post by peter green

Post by Apptech
You are entitled to load XP for free IF you have either
of
the top Vista versions (Vista Pro, ...).

Afaict that only applies to OEM and volume license copies
of buisness
and ultimate not retail or retail upgrade copies.

CNet claims that Microsoft will provide a "downgrade" disk
to anyone who asks that will work with any flavour of Vista
Business or Vista Ultimate

This sounds more like something they will actually do rather
than something they will tell you they do. Note that your
OEM is NOT permitted to provide you with XP media for
downgrading with.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/windows/microsoft-offering-vista+to+xp-downgrade-option-to-anyone-not-just-oems-303067.php

"While many sites today are claiming that MS is only
offering Vista-to-XP downgrade discs to OEMs, CNet Asia
found out that Microsoft support will allow anybody with a
copy of Vista Ultimate or Business to call and request a
downgrade disc themselves, just like it says in the license
terms. So there you have it, any Joe Schmo can pick up a
Vista downgrade disc as long as they have a nice enough
version of Vista."

_____

Here's u$ofts explanation of the OEM version

http://download.microsoft.com/download/5/f/4/5f4c83d3-833e-4f11-8cbd-699b0c164182/royaltyoemreferencesheet.pdf


_____________

u$oft Life Cycle OS policy chart.
Note that system builders now are allowed XP until January
31st 2009 *BUT* XP home will be available on ultra low cost
PCs until the later of June 30th *2010* OR until Windows 7
becomes available.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/lifecycle/default.mspx


Russell

[peter green]

Post by Apptech
CNet claims that Microsoft will provide a "downgrade" disk
to anyone who asks that will work with any flavour of Vista
Business or Vista Ultimate

Lets see a very short article that gives no sources on how they found
out this information and whether or not they tried with different
license types, nor evidence of a license allowing retail or retail
upgrade copies to be downgraded.

Post by Apptech
This sounds more like something they will actually do rather
than something they will tell you they do. Note that your
OEM is NOT permitted to provide you with XP media for
downgrading with.

IIRC MS relented on that one (though it seems the documents on thier
website were not updated).

[Xiaofan Chen]

Post by Dr Skip
Just an update - I've ditched Vista... After hours and hours watching it
install sp1, then uninstall it for some error, I couldn't take it any more! I
tried every possible change to get it to work, but there seems to be a high
proportion of users with new machines that can't install sp1. The only step
left was a wipe and start fresh to try that. No way...

Vista SP1 installed fine for our laptop. Unfortunately it does not
solve the software compatibility issues with Vista.

Post by Dr Skip
XP runs very fast and fine on this Acer, and their XP drivers are all fine. A
few hours to get the system the way I like vs the 2 weeks it took with Vista.

We come to the same conclusion now judging from my wife's
increasing frustrations with Vista. XP is more productive than
Vista for her.

Post by Dr Skip
I should've done this day one!! And I highly recommend it to anyone! ;)

I am thinking of buying another XP based laptop (not many now)
for my wife now that she needs to do more work on her computer.
This will cut down her frustration time and my support time.
I personally would like to try out Vista to see if it is really that bad
for me.


Xiaofan

[Apptech]

Post by Dr Skip
Just an update - I've ditched Vista... After hours and
hours watching it
install sp1, then uninstall it for some error, I couldn't
take it any more! I
tried every possible change to get it to work, but there
seems to be a high
proportion of users with new machines that can't install
sp1. The only step
left was a wipe and start fresh to try that. No way...

I'm running Vista Home + or whatever its called on 1 laptop
because that is what it came with.
Focus is mainly as a photo platform and in that role it's OK
enough and simply annoying. I still haven't worked out how
to let the rest of the network here access it but it can
access the network so that's a bearable annoyance. Its basic
support for photo files is slightly better than for XP and
that's not unwelcome. Most annoying is that it does various
standard things differently from XP for no apparently good
reason. It also can't seem to decide whether I am allowed
(with full permissions) to write to C:\ or to make
subdirectories / folders there. Sometimes I can and
sometimes not and I don't know what makes it change its
mind. Single user, full admin access rights ... .

I just re XPd a laptop for a friend after the usually
excellent COMODO firewall interacted in some way as she
installed it and trashed the OS totally. I've recommended
that she avoid the XP Sp3 invitations for now.


Russell

[Dario Greggio]

Post by Apptech
reason. It also can't seem to decide whether I am allowed
(with full permissions) to write to C:\ or to make
subdirectories / folders there. Sometimes I can and
sometimes not and I don't know what makes it change its
mind. Single user, full admin access rights ... .

same here.... !

[Dr Skip]

I, too, do a lot of photography, have a lan and servers, et al, and it took me
weeks of hand crafting settings to get things at least workable. That just
isn't right. I also keep a sharp eye on services, and vista has an order of
magnitude more. They seem to change a lot in vista too...

There are several web pages that show how to 'take ownership' of a file or
folder, and place it on the context menu in explorer. It's two commands rather
than just cacls in xp. I found that useful. The ONLY way to get things to work
(if you don't just buy MS Office and use it as an expensive, single function
office appliance :( ) is by overriding a lot of what they call 'protection'. I
came across a study by an anti-malware vendor that showed, based on infections,
that vista was 30% less secure than XP (win2k was best). I don't believe it's
from people 'taking ownership' either, as some of those changes are deeper than
most are comfortable with. The root cause of all of this is over complexity. It
isn't even manageable by microsoft any more!

I also found out a possible cause for the network slowness. Prior tcpip.sys
drivers allowed the full 65,000 ports to be open at any time. Vista home allows
2 at a time. Even xp sp2 reduces it to 10 in the service pack, but there are
hacks to raise it to 50+ available.

I personally find it onerous that an 'update' reduce such functionality like
that. Like Ford taking their cars back and giving you a bicycle instead as an
'upgrade'. Any serious network work will have to be Linux from now on.

Post by Dario Greggio

Post by Apptech
reason. It also can't seem to decide whether I am allowed
(with full permissions) to write to C:\ or to make
subdirectories / folders there. Sometimes I can and
sometimes not and I don't know what makes it change its
mind. Single user, full admin access rights ... .

same here.... !

[Apptech]

Post by Dr Skip
I personally find it onerous that an 'update' reduce such
functionality like
that. Like Ford taking their cars back and giving you a
bicycle instead as an
'upgrade'. Any serious network work will have to be Linux
from now on.

Linux needs/needed a quantum leap to allow it to properly
jump ahead of Windows. Maybe Vista is it.


Russell

[Marcel Duchamp]

Post by Apptech
Its basic
support for photo files is slightly better than for XP and
that's not unwelcome.
Russell

Russell,
What do you mean by "support for photo files"? What does Vista do
differently with those versus any other files?

[Herbert Graf]

Post by Marcel Duchamp

Post by Apptech
Its basic
support for photo files is slightly better than for XP and
that's not unwelcome.
Russell

Russell,
What do you mean by "support for photo files"? What does Vista do
differently with those versus any other files?

As has been common in most OS development, features added by 3rd parties
that are deemed really useful are absorbed into the OS proper.

Photo sorting/displaying is one of the features that was added by 3rd
parties in XP but has now been merged into Vista's feature set.

Frankly, IMHO this one little benefit is far outshadowed by the issues
that Vista has, and I can't imagine anyone moving to Vista for just that
feature.

TTYL

[Apptech]

Post by Marcel Duchamp

Post by Apptech
Its basic
support for photo files is slightly better than for XP
and
that's not unwelcome.

What do you mean by "support for photo files"? What does
Vista do
differently with those versus any other files?

As I said " ... basic ...".
Nothing very flash.
Just *slightly* more useful.
When viewing a folder in thumbnail mode the thumbnails can
be resized continuously variably. A little thing but nice.
Also, you can jump between viewing modes (thumbnail/detail/
...) slightly more easily, which is a little useful if in a
hurry and wanting to sort files or look at details etc. And
no doubt a few other little thing that grow on you. Not
enough to make up for the other problems, but useful if you
happen to have Vista installed.


Russell

[Marcel]

I see, thanks for the explanation. I've been using IrfanView to do most
of those things and it's pretty much like an extension of the operating
system for me. I, too, do a bit of photography and use it as a super
multifunction tool.

Post by Apptech

Post by Marcel Duchamp

Post by Apptech
Its basic
support for photo files is slightly better than for XP
and
that's not unwelcome.

What do you mean by "support for photo files"? What does
Vista do
differently with those versus any other files?

As I said " ... basic ...".
Nothing very flash.
Just *slightly* more useful.
When viewing a folder in thumbnail mode the thumbnails can
be resized continuously variably. A little thing but nice.
Also, you can jump between viewing modes (thumbnail/detail/
...) slightly more easily, which is a little useful if in a
hurry and wanting to sort files or look at details etc. And
no doubt a few other little thing that grow on you. Not
enough to make up for the other problems, but useful if you
happen to have Vista installed.
Russell

[Apptech]

Post by Marcel
I see, thanks for the explanation. I've been using
IrfanView to do most
of those things and it's pretty much like an extension of
the operating
system for me. I, too, do a bit of photography and use it
as a super
multifunction tool.

I also use Irfanview. It's my main photo management tool
when portable and pretty much so at home. But if the
operating system adds extra features I'll use them. and
thumbnail viewing "just happens" with the O/S whereas it has
to be 'built' with Irfanview and is relatively slow.

XNView is slightly friendlier in that respect but I so far
tend to almost only use Irfanview. XNView and irfanview
complement each other in capabilities.


Russell