Discussion:
[EE] Looking for audio delay module
Dwayne Reid
2018-06-19 02:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Good day to all.

One of the people with whom I work regularly wants to use analog
Motorola base radios as an extension of the Intercom systems that I
work with. We normally use a GPIO line from the Intercom system to
control transmitter PTT but we now have an application where VOX is preferred.

Some of the Motorola radios we have available are capable of both
digital and analog transmission. These already have a short audio
delay of somewhat less than 100ms which does work well. However, for
various reasons, the radios that we want to use in this particular
project are analog-only and do not have an audio delay available.

What the audio delay does is ensure that the first word of a
transmission that is triggered by VOX is not lost. That is: the
person begins to speak, the radio is immediately put into YX mode,
then the delayed audio is fed to the transmitter. This allows the
entire beginning of the transmission to be heard by the recipients
without losing the first word or two.

I used to build something like this many years ago, using Reticon
bucket-brigade delay chips. Those have now vanished.

The easiest solution for me is to simply find something that is
available off-the-shelf at reasonably-low cost. Barring that, modern
PIC chips have enough RAM to buffer 100ms of audio at a reasonable sample rate.

Two questions:

1) Is anyone aware of a readily-available audio delay module at
reasonable cost? I just need the bare PCB since this module would be
incorporated with the remaining electronics needed.

2) Is anyone aware of a pre-existing PIC project that I can clone /
modify as needed for my needs? I would prefer a minimum of external
components: use both the on-board A/D and either PWM or DAC to
reconstruct the output audio.

Unbalanced audio for both input and output, audio level not critical,
prefer 10 bit or 12 bit resolution simply to maximize the available
dynamic range. Frequency response up to 5 KHz (or higher) preferred
- the communications radios are already pretty brutal and I don't
want to degrade that further with the delay circuit.

If there is a suitable PIC design, I'd prefer to work with the PIC16F
family as opposed to the PIC18F. However, I'll take what ever is available.

Many thanks!

dwayne
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Dwayne Reid <***@planet.eon.net>
Trinity Electronics Systems Ltd Edmonton, AB, CANADA
780-489-3199 voice 780-487-6397 fax 888-489-3199 Toll Free
www.trinity-electronics.com
Custom Electronics Design and Manufacturing
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AB Pearce - UKRI STFC
2018-06-19 08:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dwayne Reid
2) Is anyone aware of a pre-existing PIC project that I can clone /
modify as needed for my needs? I would prefer a minimum of external
components: use both the on-board A/D and either PWM or DAC to
reconstruct the output audio.
Unbalanced audio for both input and output, audio level not critical,
Prefer 10 bit or 12 bit resolution simply to maximize the available
dynamic range. Frequency response up to 5 KHz (or higher) preferred
- the communications radios are already pretty brutal and I don't
want to degrade that further with the delay circuit.
If there is a suitable PIC design, I'd prefer to work with the PIC16F
family as opposed to the PIC18F. However, I'll take what ever is available.
The new PIC16F188xx family has dual 10 bit ADC/DAC I believe, but I don't know how much RAM.

The almost released (some information including links to data sheets on the Microchip forum) PIC33CH/CK family also have 12 bit ADC/DAC.

I am not aware of an out of the box project to do what you want, but have been thinking of using PIC33 devices to build equalisers for use in taming feedback problems when doing PA work at church.
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Richard
2018-06-19 10:13:56 UTC
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Post by Dwayne Reid
1) Is anyone aware of a readily-available audio delay module at
reasonable cost? I just need the bare PCB since this module would be
incorporated with the remaining electronics needed.
Dwayne,
Would the PT2399 work for your application?
http://www.diyaudiocircuits.com/tutorials/pt2399-digital-delay-analog-echo/

Richard
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Clint Jay
2018-06-19 11:26:47 UTC
Permalink
I was about to suggest the PT2399 as well, they’re dirt cheap and very easy
to use.
Post by Richard
Post by Dwayne Reid
1) Is anyone aware of a readily-available audio delay module at
reasonable cost? I just need the bare PCB since this module would be
incorporated with the remaining electronics needed.
Dwayne,
Would the PT2399 work for your application?
http://www.diyaudiocircuits.com/tutorials/pt2399-digital-delay-analog-echo/
Richard
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of electrons were greatly inconvenienced.*
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RussellMc
2018-06-19 13:15:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dwayne Reid
​...

Post by Dwayne Reid
I used to build something like this many years ago, using Reticon
bucket-brigade delay chips. Those have now vanished.
​I also used Reticon BB ICs decades ago (about 1975) to do very much the
same.
NZ Telecom (then Post Office) had radio "trunks" that clipped first word.
Worked well.

The ISD voice recorder ICs *MY* be able to be used this way.


Russell
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Denny Esterline
2018-06-19 13:56:03 UTC
Permalink
It's early and I haven't had my requisite coffee yet, but...
My fuzzy memory is pretty sure that Microchip had an appnote for one of the
dsPIC30 (or maybe 33) parts that did this.

A half-hearted attempt at googling for it while the coffee is brewing did
not find it, but did find several related projects that may be of interest

This one uses a 16F88, external RAM and an external DAC
http://www.instructables.com/id/Audio-Delay-Module/
This one might be a better place to start, dsPIC33FJ, internal DAC,
external RAM, claims four seconds.
Looks to have some analog mixing of the input and output signals, but that
could be deleted.
https://electricdruid.net/diy-digital-delay/

hmmm... coffee....

-Denny
Post by RussellMc
Post by Dwayne Reid
​...

Post by Dwayne Reid
I used to build something like this many years ago, using Reticon
bucket-brigade delay chips. Those have now vanished.
​I also used Reticon BB ICs decades ago (about 1975) to do very much the
same.
NZ Telecom (then Post Office) had radio "trunks" that clipped first word.
Worked well.
The ISD voice recorder ICs *MY* be able to be used this way.
Russell
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AB Pearce - UKRI STFC
2018-06-19 15:47:17 UTC
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Post by Denny Esterline
https://electricdruid.net/diy-digital-delay/
hmmm... coffee....
Hmm, well that used up an hour when I should have been doing other things, are you attempting to become a Russell, posting 'black hole' links to sites ??? :))
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David C Brown
2018-06-19 15:54:00 UTC
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In the Mountain Rescue we had voice operated radios that clipped the first
word. We used a very low tech solution: starting each message with the
phrase "Pay attention!"

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
Post by RussellMc
Post by Dwayne Reid
​...

Post by Dwayne Reid
I used to build something like this many years ago, using Reticon
bucket-brigade delay chips. Those have now vanished.
​I also used Reticon BB ICs decades ago (about 1975) to do very much the
same.
NZ Telecom (then Post Office) had radio "trunks" that clipped first word.
Worked well.
The ISD voice recorder ICs *MY* be able to be used this way.
Russell
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Van Horn, David
2018-06-19 15:56:17 UTC
Permalink
I've long thought that microphones for police and other emergency responders should have such a circuit.
"Don't Shoot" carries a very different meaning without the first word.


-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of David C Brown
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 9:54 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [EE] Looking for audio delay module

In the Mountain Rescue we had voice operated radios that clipped the first word. We used a very low tech solution: starting each message with the phrase "Pay attention!"

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
Post by RussellMc
Post by Dwayne Reid
​...

Post by Dwayne Reid
I used to build something like this many years ago, using Reticon
bucket-brigade delay chips. Those have now vanished.
​I also used Reticon BB ICs decades ago (about 1975) to do very much the
same.
NZ Telecom (then Post Office) had radio "trunks" that clipped first word.
Worked well.
The ISD voice recorder ICs *MY* be able to be used this way.
Russell
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Allen Mulvey
2018-06-19 20:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Police got around this by using a "10" code. The 10 got clipped but it didn't matter. Most such codes were abandoned two or three decades ago. Training to "make sure the button is fully pressed before talking" was much better than trying to fit your communication into some predefined code. Radios got much better also.

Allen

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of David C Brown
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 11:54 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Looking for audio delay module

In the Mountain Rescue we had voice operated radios that clipped the first
word. We used a very low tech solution: starting each message with the
phrase "Pay attention!"

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
Post by RussellMc
Post by Dwayne Reid
​...

Post by Dwayne Reid
I used to build something like this many years ago, using Reticon
bucket-brigade delay chips. Those have now vanished.
​I also used Reticon BB ICs decades ago (about 1975) to do very much the
same.
NZ Telecom (then Post Office) had radio "trunks" that clipped first word.
Worked well.
The ISD voice recorder ICs *MY* be able to be used this way.
Russell
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Van Horn, David
2018-06-19 21:52:02 UTC
Permalink
Yeah, I remember. Most of the 10 codes were mostly the same in most places.
The incident command system was strongly discouraging such codes for that reason, when I was working with emergency management in Indiana.

I don't have a link to the story, but there was a news story a while back where some scanner listener was outraged when he heard a fire commander order everyone to "leave the blacks and get out" of a structure fire.

Of course what he was actually saying was "leave all the dead bodies and get out" but of course the listener didn't know that.
Might or might not be a true story.


-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of Allen Mulvey
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 2:53 PM
To: 'Microcontroller discussion list - Public.' <***@mit.edu>
Subject: RE: [EE] Looking for audio delay module

Police got around this by using a "10" code. The 10 got clipped but it didn't matter. Most such codes were abandoned two or three decades ago. Training to "make sure the button is fully pressed before talking" was much better than trying to fit your communication into some predefined code. Radios got much better also.

Allen

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu [mailto:piclist-***@mit.edu] On Behalf Of David C Brown
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 11:54 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Looking for audio delay module

In the Mountain Rescue we had voice operated radios that clipped the first word. We used a very low tech solution: starting each message with the phrase "Pay attention!"

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
Post by RussellMc
Post by Dwayne Reid
​...

Post by Dwayne Reid
I used to build something like this many years ago, using Reticon
bucket-brigade delay chips. Those have now vanished.
​I also used Reticon BB ICs decades ago (about 1975) to do very much the
same.
NZ Telecom (then Post Office) had radio "trunks" that clipped first word.
Worked well.
The ISD voice recorder ICs *MY* be able to be used this way.
Russell
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David C Brown
2018-06-19 22:19:12 UTC
Permalink
In mountain rescue we would call the dead bodies "Deltas". That was meant
o confuse any journos who were eavesdropping on the channel.

__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
Derbyshire eMail: ***@gmail.com
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>



*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*

On 19 June 2018 at 22:52, Van Horn, David <
Post by Van Horn, David
Yeah, I remember. Most of the 10 codes were mostly the same in most places.
The incident command system was strongly discouraging such codes for that
reason, when I was working with emergency management in Indiana.
I don't have a link to the story, but there was a news story a while back
where some scanner listener was outraged when he heard a fire commander
order everyone to "leave the blacks and get out" of a structure fire.
Of course what he was actually saying was "leave all the dead bodies and
get out" but of course the listener didn't know that.
Might or might not be a true story.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 2:53 PM
Subject: RE: [EE] Looking for audio delay module
Police got around this by using a "10" code. The 10 got clipped but it
didn't matter. Most such codes were abandoned two or three decades ago.
Training to "make sure the button is fully pressed before talking" was
much better than trying to fit your communication into some predefined
code. Radios got much better also.
Allen
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 11:54 AM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public.
Subject: Re: [EE] Looking for audio delay module
In the Mountain Rescue we had voice operated radios that clipped the first
word. We used a very low tech solution: starting each message with the
phrase "Pay attention!"
__________________________________________
David C Brown
43 Bings Road
Whaley Bridge
High Peak Phone: 01663 733236
SK23 7ND web: www.bings-knowle.co.uk/dcb
<http://www.jb.man.ac.uk/~dcb>
*Sent from my etch-a-sketch*
Post by RussellMc
Post by Dwayne Reid
​...

Post by Dwayne Reid
I used to build something like this many years ago, using Reticon
bucket-brigade delay chips. Those have now vanished.
​I also used Reticon BB ICs decades ago (about 1975) to do very much the
same.
NZ Telecom (then Post Office) had radio "trunks" that clipped first word.
Worked well.
The ISD voice recorder ICs *MY* be able to be used this way.
Russell
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James Cameron
2018-06-19 22:56:01 UTC
Permalink
In mountain rescue we would call the dead bodies "Deltas". That was
meant o confuse any journos who were eavesdropping on the channel.
Yeah, they all try this; make secret substitution cypher, which
immediately leaks through the social connection between the service
workers and the journalists or general public.

Here, publication of the signal intelligence is fined. Journalists
instead use the audio to get to the site, or to ask questions of
the service.

Perhaps another fix is a tort of privacy for the deceased, where a
court can take action against premature publication.
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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