Discussion:
[PIC] Static damage prevention
Chuck Olson
2018-02-10 17:44:11 UTC
Permalink
Fellows and Gals -

It's static season here, had a customer complain about a PIC based
product acting strangely - I *think* it's due to static damage.

He purchased a replacement PIC, I included some small (180 ohm) series
resistors for a couple of inputs - also a 1n4148 diode to attach,
reversed biased, between the programming voltage pin (pin 4 on an 8
pin PIC) and VDD.

Just wondering if there are any other tips or tricks I might suggest
to him to help prevent static damage ?

Chuck
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Sean Breheny
2018-02-10 22:42:20 UTC
Permalink
This is a rather big topic. It is really quite important to consider how
static discharge could affect your product through any of its i/o or power
inputs or even switches or other openings in the case. I usually employ a
combination of a ferrite bead, ceramic capacitor, and tvs diode on every
wire which leaves or enters the pub. Sometimes this scheme must be modified
because the signal on said wire is too high frequency or carries too much
current. But the general strategy is absorb-block-clamp.

The capacitor helps to convert a very short high voltage pulse into a
longer duration but much smaller amplitude pulse (absorb). The ferrite bead
limits the current in the fast pulse so that parasitic inductance in the
ground path and in the capacitor do not develop a high voltage drop. (Block)

Finally, the tvs diode clamps the remaining pulse to no greater than the
max rated voltage of the i/o pin. (Clamp)

So the ferrite bead would be located nearest the outside world, and then
the cap and tvs diode would be in parallel between the signal line and gnd
after the ferrite.

I also like to maintain a separate ground "ring" around the perimeter of
the board which connects to the rest of the ground plane at only one point.
The tvs diodes and esd-related caps connect to this ground and this ground
is also the only connection to chassis (not always feasible when you have
RF signals)

This ground ensures that transient high voltage drops due to fast was
pulses do not develop between locations on the main ground plane.

In the end, all of this must be tested and any remaining vulnerabilities
corrected.

I have designed 4 or 5 high volume (10k to 200k) industrial products using
variations of this strategy with no problems passing esd tests and very few
known field esd failures.

Sean
Post by Chuck Olson
Fellows and Gals -
It's static season here, had a customer complain about a PIC based
product acting strangely - I *think* it's due to static damage.
He purchased a replacement PIC, I included some small (180 ohm) series
resistors for a couple of inputs - also a 1n4148 diode to attach,
reversed biased, between the programming voltage pin (pin 4 on an 8
pin PIC) and VDD.
Just wondering if there are any other tips or tricks I might suggest
to him to help prevent static damage ?
Chuck
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Sean Breheny
2018-02-10 22:45:27 UTC
Permalink
Darn autocorrect!

"Enters the pub" = "Enters the pcb"
"was pulses" = "esd pulses"
Post by Sean Breheny
This is a rather big topic. It is really quite important to consider how
static discharge could affect your product through any of its i/o or power
inputs or even switches or other openings in the case. I usually employ a
combination of a ferrite bead, ceramic capacitor, and tvs diode on every
wire which leaves or enters the pub. Sometimes this scheme must be modified
because the signal on said wire is too high frequency or carries too much
current. But the general strategy is absorb-block-clamp.
The capacitor helps to convert a very short high voltage pulse into a
longer duration but much smaller amplitude pulse (absorb). The ferrite bead
limits the current in the fast pulse so that parasitic inductance in the
ground path and in the capacitor do not develop a high voltage drop. (Block)
Finally, the tvs diode clamps the remaining pulse to no greater than the
max rated voltage of the i/o pin. (Clamp)
So the ferrite bead would be located nearest the outside world, and then
the cap and tvs diode would be in parallel between the signal line and gnd
after the ferrite.
I also like to maintain a separate ground "ring" around the perimeter of
the board which connects to the rest of the ground plane at only one point.
The tvs diodes and esd-related caps connect to this ground and this ground
is also the only connection to chassis (not always feasible when you have
RF signals)
This ground ensures that transient high voltage drops due to fast was
pulses do not develop between locations on the main ground plane.
In the end, all of this must be tested and any remaining vulnerabilities
corrected.
I have designed 4 or 5 high volume (10k to 200k) industrial products using
variations of this strategy with no problems passing esd tests and very few
known field esd failures.
Sean
Post by Chuck Olson
Fellows and Gals -
It's static season here, had a customer complain about a PIC based
product acting strangely - I *think* it's due to static damage.
He purchased a replacement PIC, I included some small (180 ohm) series
resistors for a couple of inputs - also a 1n4148 diode to attach,
reversed biased, between the programming voltage pin (pin 4 on an 8
pin PIC) and VDD.
Just wondering if there are any other tips or tricks I might suggest
to him to help prevent static damage ?
Chuck
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John Gardner
2018-02-10 22:51:10 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for the guidance, Sean - Good stuff!

Jack
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a***@stfc.ac.uk
2018-02-10 23:05:18 UTC
Permalink
This is a rather big topic. It is really quite important to consider how static discharge could affect your
product through any of its i/o or power inputs or even switches or other openings in the case. I usually
employ a combination of a ferrite bead, ceramic capacitor, and tvs diode on every wire which leaves
or enters the pub.
I'll have a cider please ... oh, I guess you mean PCB, not the pub ... :)
Sometimes this scheme must be modified because the signal on said wire is too high frequency or
carries too much current. But the general strategy is absorb-block-clamp.
For high frequency stuff there are a number of TVS type devices designed for USB2/3 use, so missing a clamp on a line is no excuse these days. In most cases where high current is involved a 1 meg resistor to somewhere that can act as a grounding point for the static is also generally not a problem, but such circuits tend to be low enough impedance that a static build up generally isn't a problem.
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Sean Breheny
2018-02-11 03:09:32 UTC
Permalink
I was afraid that this would be interpreted as the beginning of a bad joke
("A wire entered a pub...")!
Post by Sean Breheny
Post by Sean Breheny
This is a rather big topic. It is really quite important to consider how
static discharge could affect your
Post by Sean Breheny
product through any of its i/o or power inputs or even switches or other
openings in the case. I usually
Post by Sean Breheny
employ a combination of a ferrite bead, ceramic capacitor, and tvs diode
on every wire which leaves
Post by Sean Breheny
or enters the pub.
I'll have a cider please ... oh, I guess you mean PCB, not the pub ... :)
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Ryan O'Connor
2018-02-11 03:58:33 UTC
Permalink
An Englishman, an American, and a wire entered a pub. The Irishman
challenged the other two to a competition over which party was more
knowledgeable about electromagnetism.

The American said, "We are the greatest because we invented electricity".
The Englishman said, "That can't possibly be. For it was the English who
first introduced the word Electricity".

By this time the other two were were so busy fighting that the wire had
already transmitted an HTTP GET request to google and received a response
with the correct answer.


Ryan
Post by Sean Breheny
I was afraid that this would be interpreted as the beginning of a bad joke
("A wire entered a pub...")!
Post by Sean Breheny
Post by Sean Breheny
This is a rather big topic. It is really quite important to consider
how
Post by Sean Breheny
static discharge could affect your
Post by Sean Breheny
product through any of its i/o or power inputs or even switches or
other
Post by Sean Breheny
openings in the case. I usually
Post by Sean Breheny
employ a combination of a ferrite bead, ceramic capacitor, and tvs
diode
Post by Sean Breheny
on every wire which leaves
Post by Sean Breheny
or enters the pub.
I'll have a cider please ... oh, I guess you mean PCB, not the pub ... :)
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John Gardner
2018-02-11 04:14:27 UTC
Permalink
...An Englishman, an American, and a wire entered a pub. The Irishman
challenged the other two...

Umm...
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Richard Prosser
2018-02-11 07:00:35 UTC
Permalink
Most pubs worth going into have a resident Irishman.
Post by John Gardner
...An Englishman, an American, and a wire entered a pub. The Irishman
challenged the other two...
Umm...
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Ryan O'Connor
2018-02-11 08:26:17 UTC
Permalink
To clarify: The English born man was raised in Ireland and had an Irish
accent.
Post by Richard Prosser
Most pubs worth going into have a resident Irishman.
Post by John Gardner
...An Englishman, an American, and a wire entered a pub. The Irishman
challenged the other two...
Umm...
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Sean Breheny
2018-02-11 03:08:47 UTC
Permalink
One thing I forgot to mention is that, in my experience, at least SMD
resistors are pretty useless for reducing ESD current. My hunch is that the
same is true for carbon film or metal film through-hole resistors, too, but
I haven't tested that. Usually the ESD voltage will just jump right across
an SMD resistor. Even if it doesn't manage to do that, it can damage the
resistor (like making it go open circuit or much higher resistance at
least) so that your product stops working even if the ESD didn't damage any
of the ICs inside.
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John Ferrell
2018-02-12 03:10:00 UTC
Permalink
I think the general idea is to leak off the charge before it goes super
critical. Like the lightning rods at my house.

Here is a link to "spark plate" from days gone by:

http://antiqueradios.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=153325

Extra points for knowing what an Oz4 is.
Post by Sean Breheny
One thing I forgot to mention is that, in my experience, at least SMD
resistors are pretty useless for reducing ESD current. My hunch is that the
same is true for carbon film or metal film through-hole resistors, too, but
I haven't tested that. Usually the ESD voltage will just jump right across
an SMD resistor. Even if it doesn't manage to do that, it can damage the
resistor (like making it go open circuit or much higher resistance at
least) so that your product stops working even if the ESD didn't damage any
of the ICs inside.
--
John Ferrell W8CCW
Julian NC 27283
It is better to walk alone,
than with a crowd going the wrong direction.
--Diane Grant
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Chuck Olson
2018-02-11 18:58:04 UTC
Permalink
Sean -

Thanks for your reply - I need to look into the TVS and inductor usage.

Chuck
Post by Sean Breheny
This is a rather big topic. It is really quite important to consider how
static discharge could affect your product through any of its i/o or power
inputs or even switches or other openings in the case. I usually employ a
combination of a ferrite bead, ceramic capacitor, and tvs diode on every
wire which leaves or enters the pub. Sometimes this scheme must be modified
because the signal on said wire is too high frequency or carries too much
current. But the general strategy is absorb-block-clamp.
The capacitor helps to convert a very short high voltage pulse into a
longer duration but much smaller amplitude pulse (absorb). The ferrite bead
limits the current in the fast pulse so that parasitic inductance in the
ground path and in the capacitor do not develop a high voltage drop.
(Block)
Finally, the tvs diode clamps the remaining pulse to no greater than the
max rated voltage of the i/o pin. (Clamp)
So the ferrite bead would be located nearest the outside world, and then
the cap and tvs diode would be in parallel between the signal line and gnd
after the ferrite.
I also like to maintain a separate ground "ring" around the perimeter of
the board which connects to the rest of the ground plane at only one point.
The tvs diodes and esd-related caps connect to this ground and this ground
is also the only connection to chassis (not always feasible when you have
RF signals)
This ground ensures that transient high voltage drops due to fast was
pulses do not develop between locations on the main ground plane.
In the end, all of this must be tested and any remaining vulnerabilities
corrected.
I have designed 4 or 5 high volume (10k to 200k) industrial products using
variations of this strategy with no problems passing esd tests and very few
known field esd failures.
Sean
Post by Chuck Olson
Fellows and Gals -
It's static season here, had a customer complain about a PIC based
product acting strangely - I *think* it's due to static damage.
He purchased a replacement PIC, I included some small (180 ohm) series
resistors for a couple of inputs - also a 1n4148 diode to attach,
reversed biased, between the programming voltage pin (pin 4 on an 8
pin PIC) and VDD.
Just wondering if there are any other tips or tricks I might suggest
to him to help prevent static damage ?
Chuck
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James Wages
2018-02-12 01:03:10 UTC
Permalink
Sean,

Have you designed circuits for 12V and 24V automotive use? I am currently reviewing such PSU designs, one in particular for use in a 24V vehicle where a worst case 202V Load Dump pulse could be present (on vehicle's lacking suppression within the alternator). A 12V vehicle Load Dump could be as high as 125V. Static Discharge is similar yet not quite the same as a vehicle Load Dump.

Here's a 24V vehicle PSU example:

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/2B1T2F322u2i2L280a1U/24Vin_VehiclePowerSupply_12Vout-1A_v1.5.pdf

And here's a 12V vehicle PSU example, also showing expected current flow to the Load:

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/123B2f3b1M1t122D2c2t/12Vin_PSU_12Vo_and_3Vo.pdf

Note that the Schottky diode protects against reverse polarity, and a Schottky type was chosen to lower the voltage drop. It comes after the TVS since the Schottky is rated only for 70V. A bidirectional TVS was therefore chosen so it will not overload in the event of reverse polarity. The Voltage input is externally fused because TVS diodes fail shorted. There is not a lot of capacitance on the Voltage input because the caps need to be rated for high voltage there, and because the Buck regulator really only requires the shown capacitance to operate adequately. So the question then comes down to what wattage rating the TVS should be. I often see 600W rated TVS diodes used in applications like this, and there are not a lot of reported failures. My guess is because not a lot of people removing the battery while the engine is running (which is the only time one would experience a Load Dump), and because most modern vehicles have suppression in the alternator, which often will cap a Load Dump spike to 80V or less. Even so, if one were to design the circuit without reliance on such alternator based suppression, one would need to give though to how effective a given TVS diode would be. Sure, it would be "safer" to just use a 2200W TVS, or hey, even two 5000W TVS diodes in parallel, but such adds cost and requires more board space. The SMD type TVS diodes seem to be better for suppression than the leaded types, yet the SMD types only go up to 1500W. So I am unsure if it is best just to stick with the 600W SMD TVS or move up to something higher wattage.

If after reviewing the above 2 schematics you would recommend the addition of a ferrite bead, what specific value would you propose? I am not experienced in use of ferrite beads, but I have read it is best to only use them on the high voltage side and not on the Ground (even though I've seen designs that have 1 bead on the voltage input and 1 other bead on the ground input). I would also appreciate your thoughts on the Input line capacitance, keeping in mind the voltage ratings of the caps that would be needed there.

Thank you,

--James Wages



Sat, 10 Feb 2018, Sean Breheny <***@cornell.edu>:

It is really quite important to consider how
static discharge could affect your product through any of its i/o or power
inputs or even switches or other openings in the case. I usually employ a
combination of a ferrite bead, ceramic capacitor, and tvs diode on every
wire which leaves or enters the pub. Sometimes this scheme must be modified
because the signal on said wire is too high frequency or carries too much
current. But the general strategy is absorb-block-clamp.

The capacitor helps to convert a very short high voltage pulse into a
longer duration but much smaller amplitude pulse (absorb). The ferrite bead
limits the current in the fast pulse so that parasitic inductance in the
ground path and in the capacitor do not develop a high voltage drop. (Block)

Finally, the tvs diode clamps the remaining pulse to no greater than the
max rated voltage of the i/o pin. (Clamp)

So the ferrite bead would be located nearest the outside world, and then
the cap and tvs diode would be in parallel between the signal line and gnd
after the ferrite.

I also like to maintain a separate ground "ring" around the perimeter of
the board which connects to the rest of the ground plane at only one point.
The tvs diodes and esd-related caps connect to this ground and this ground
is also the only connection to chassis (not always feasible when you have
RF signals)

This ground ensures that transient high voltage drops due to fast was
pulses do not develop between locations on the main ground plane.

In the end, all of this must be tested and any remaining vulnerabilities
corrected.

I have designed 4 or 5 high volume (10k to 200k) industrial products using
variations of this strategy with no problems passing esd tests and very few
known field esd failures.

Sean
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Bob Blick
2018-02-12 01:23:52 UTC
Permalink
Hi James,
I have a few 12/24V automotive designs under my belt, and from what I've seen, it's still installer error that causes the most problems. Vehicles nowadays are pretty well snubbed unless you pick your power from some bizarre place.

The main thing to prepare for is your ground wire to be connected to +24V while the device is solidly bolted to chassis.

Everything I design now has the case isolated from vehicle supply/ground except for 1 Megohm and a small (33nF or thereabouts) cap. No more melted ground wires :)

Cheerful regards,

Bob


________________________________________
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> on behalf of James Wages
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2018 5:03 PM
To: ***@mit.edu
Subject: Re: [PIC] Static damage prevention

Sean,

Have you designed circuits for 12V and 24V automotive use? I am currently reviewing such PSU designs, one in particular for use in a 24V vehicle where a worst case 202V Load Dump pulse could be present (on vehicle's lacking suppression within the alternator). A 12V vehicle Load Dump could be as high as 125V. Static Discharge is similar yet not quite the same as a vehicle Load Dump.

Here's a 24V vehicle PSU example:

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/2B1T2F322u2i2L280a1U/24Vin_VehiclePowerSupply_12Vout-1A_v1.5.pdf

And here's a 12V vehicle PSU example, also showing expected current flow to the Load:

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/123B2f3b1M1t122D2c2t/12Vin_PSU_12Vo_and_3Vo.pdf

Note that the Schottky diode protects against reverse polarity, and a Schottky type was chosen to lower the voltage drop. It comes after the TVS since the Schottky is rated only for 70V. A bidirectional TVS was therefore chosen so it will not overload in the event of reverse polarity. The Voltage input is externally fused because TVS diodes fail shorted. There is not a lot of capacitance on the Voltage input because the caps need to be rated for high voltage there, and because the Buck regulator really only requires the shown capacitance to operate adequately. So the question then comes down to what wattage rating the TVS should be. I often see 600W rated TVS diodes used in applications like this, and there are not a lot of reported failures. My guess is because not a lot of people removing the battery while the engine is running (which is the only time one would experience a Load Dump), and because most modern vehicles have suppression in the alternator, which often !
will cap a Load Dump spike to 80V or less. Even so, if one were to design the circuit without reliance on such alternator based suppression, one would need to give though to how effective a given TVS diode would be. Sure, it would be "safer" to just use a 2200W TVS, or hey, even two 5000W TVS diodes in parallel, but such adds cost and requires more board space. The SMD type TVS diodes seem to be better for suppression than the leaded types, yet the SMD types only go up to 1500W. So I am unsure if it is best just to stick with the 600W SMD TVS or move up to something higher wattage.

If after reviewing the above 2 schematics you would recommend the addition of a ferrite bead, what specific value would you propose? I am not experienced in use of ferrite beads, but I have read it is best to only use them on the high voltage side and not on the Ground (even though I've seen designs that have 1 bead on the voltage input and 1 other bead on the ground input). I would also appreciate your thoughts on the Input line capacitance, keeping in mind the voltage ratings of the caps that would be needed there.

Thank you,

--James Wages
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Neil
2018-02-13 02:26:06 UTC
Permalink
On that 12Vin PS, I can't see how R1 can be 130 ohms. if you have 12V
on the left side of R1, then at 100mA, the R1 wants to drop more than 12V.
Perhaps it should be more like 80 ohms or less.

Cheers,
-Neil.
Post by James Wages
Sean,
...
https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/123B2f3b1M1t122D2c2t/12Vin_PSU_12Vo_and_3Vo.pdf
...
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Chuck Olson
2018-02-12 18:16:22 UTC
Permalink
FYI, the customer got the replacement PIC and has the same problems,
so I guess a "nevermind" is in order as far as static damage. Back to
the (remote control diagnostic) drawing board

Chuck
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James Wages
2018-02-13 01:31:57 UTC
Permalink
Hi Bob,

All of the devices I deal with have a plastic housing so module-mounting to the vehicle frame would not result in current flow if the Ground wire only was connected to +24V. But even in the event of reverse polarity where the device Ground was connected to +12V and the Voltage Input was connected to GND, as shown in the schematics I presented, the inline Schottky diode protects the circuit against such problems completely:

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/2B1T2F322u2i2L280a1U/24Vin_VehiclePowerSupply_12Vout-1A_v1.5.pdf

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/123B2f3b1M1t122D2c2t/12Vin_PSU_12Vo_and_3Vo.pdf

Most cars (12V & 24V) manufactured in the last 10 years have alternator snubbers. Even so, you never know if your device will be installed in an older vehicle which lacks snubbing. In those cases, a 202V-peak Load Dump spike for 24V or a 125V-peak spike on 12V vehicles is possible. So when reviewing automotive designs I need to decide whether to adjust the design for that possibility or just "hope for the best" and assume a snubber is already in use. Here are the typical unsuppressed waveforms:

12v:
Loading Image...

24v (& 12V):
http://bit.ly/2G8T5Om

For that reason, I am still curious if a ferrite bead added to the Voltage Input would be prudent, assuming the choice of a 600W TVS is deemed inadequate for shunting the Load Dump spike. I know this question isn't completely the same as "Static damage prevention" but the dialog in this thread brought Load Dumps to mind, as well as the current designs I am reviewing.

Thanks,

James Wages

===========

Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Bob Blick <***@outlook.com>:

Hi James,
I have a few 12/24V automotive designs under my belt, and from what I've seen, it's still installer error that causes the most problems. Vehicles nowadays are pretty well snubbed unless you pick your power from some bizarre place.

The main thing to prepare for is your ground wire to be connected to +24V while the device is solidly bolted to chassis.

Everything I design now has the case isolated from vehicle supply/ground except for 1 Megohm and a small (33nF or thereabouts) cap. No more melted ground wires :)

Cheerful regards,

Bob
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Neil
2018-02-13 02:42:08 UTC
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Look at the ST Micro RBO40 also. I've had really good results with this
for the past decade on new and older cars (12V systems).

Cheers,
-Neil.
Post by James Wages
Hi Bob,
https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/2B1T2F322u2i2L280a1U/24Vin_VehiclePowerSupply_12Vout-1A_v1.5.pdf
https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/123B2f3b1M1t122D2c2t/12Vin_PSU_12Vo_and_3Vo.pdf
http://www.sto-p.com/pfp/loaddump.gif
http://bit.ly/2G8T5Om
For that reason, I am still curious if a ferrite bead added to the Voltage Input would be prudent, assuming the choice of a 600W TVS is deemed inadequate for shunting the Load Dump spike. I know this question isn't completely the same as "Static damage prevention" but the dialog in this thread brought Load Dumps to mind, as well as the current designs I am reviewing.
Thanks,
James Wages
===========
Hi James,
I have a few 12/24V automotive designs under my belt, and from what I've seen, it's still installer error that causes the most problems. Vehicles nowadays are pretty well snubbed unless you pick your power from some bizarre place.
The main thing to prepare for is your ground wire to be connected to +24V while the device is solidly bolted to chassis.
Everything I design now has the case isolated from vehicle supply/ground except for 1 Megohm and a small (33nF or thereabouts) cap. No more melted ground wires :)
Cheerful regards,
Bob
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a***@stfc.ac.uk
2018-02-13 09:38:41 UTC
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Post by James Wages
For that reason, I am still curious if a ferrite bead added to the Voltage Input
would be prudent, assuming the choice of a 600W TVS is deemed inadequate
for shunting the Load Dump spike. I know this question isn't completely the
same as "Static damage prevention" but the dialog in this thread brought
Load Dumps to mind, as well as the current designs I am reviewing.
A ferrite bead will help to slow the dV/dt at the TVS, and hence protect it from some of the dissipation shock, if you can put a ceramic bypass cap in there as well, that will help even more.

A ferrite bead will also help with keeping the worst of the high frequency alternator noise out of the electronics.

To me it is a simple minimal cost solution that won't provide much in the way of series impedance at DC.
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James Wages
2018-02-14 01:02:01 UTC
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I left that "100mA" in the 12V schematic to see who would actually review it with a sharp eye, Neil! ;-) Seriously, you are correct. That "100mA" label is incorrect. With a 12.0V vehicle battery (engine turned off), a safe upper current limit would in fact be about 40mA flowing through that 130-ohm resistor into the HT7530-1 regulator -- the input voltage to the regulator at 40mA being just over 6V, which is more than adequate for the regulator operate properly.

A variant of that circuit has been made into a mass-produced product, with the voltage regulator being instead an HT7550-1 (Output: 5V, Input: 30V max continuous, 33V absolute max). The 5V output of that 7550 regulator goes to a PIC12F1571 which outputs to 2 NPN and 1 PNP transistors (the PNP lighting an LED, and the NPN's switching the ground side of 2 low-power relays). The PIC draws about 1mA normally and about 16mA in total when the LED is lit via PNP, but that 16mA is only peak current because the LED flashes.

The 130-ohm resistor is a rather substantial value so even in the event of a 125V Load Dump spike, the 130-ohm resistor combined with the 27V Zener will keep the surge from frying the voltage regulator. If the resistor were smaller, the 1W Zener would not be able to shunt a >100V spike sufficiently to ground without overloading. But since many modern cars have Load Dump suppression built into the alternator, the Load Dump spike would likely be capped to about 80V by the vehicle circuitry before it even enters the 130-ohm resistor. So overall, that 12V PSU schematic is safe from Load Dumps of any kind on 12V vehicles.

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/123B2f3b1M1t122D2c2t/12Vin_PSU_12Vo_and_3Vo.pdf

But the 24V circuit I presented is not similarly protected with an inline resistance on Vin (and cannot be due to the output current requirements, and is also why a switching regulator is used), which is why I was curious if the addition of a ferrite bead might help with Load Dump spike suppression, assuming a max 202V Load Dump peak on a 24V vehicle. Sean Breheny hasn't replied, which I assume means he simple does not know, which is fine. I am talking about a Load Dump here, not static. I just wanted to put a couple circuits out there to garner thoughts about Ferrite Beads in vehicle PSU applications, in light of this thread having mentioned beads in ESD protection applications.

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/2B1T2F322u2i2L280a1U/24Vin_VehiclePowerSupply_12Vout-1A_v1.5.pdf

Thank you for all the opinions, suggestions and general feedback.

James Wages



Mon, 12 Feb 2018, Neil <***@narwani.org>:

On that 12Vin PS, I can't see how R1 can be 130 ohms. if you have 12V
on the left side of R1, then at 100mA, the R1 wants to drop more than 12V.
Perhaps it should be more like 80 ohms or less.
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Sean Breheny
2018-02-14 01:39:04 UTC
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I am a bit late in responding but I wanted to chime in to say that load
dump and ESD are very different and I don't think the methods of ESD
protection I mentioned would be applicable to load dump.

ESD is roughly a 1nF cap charged to between 4kV and 15kV with about a 100
ohm series resistance. Rise time is about 1ns and fall time about 500ns.
Current is about 10 to 100 amps peak. Total energy less than 1 Joule -
usually about 10mJ.

I am less familiar with load dump but I would guess it would typically have
a rise time of about 1us, fall time of about 10ms, current about 10 to 1000
amps, and a total energy of about 10 Joules, maybe more. In other words, a
sledgehammer compared to ESD (which is more like a small rock thrown very
fast)
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James Wages
2018-02-15 00:08:48 UTC
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I appreciate your reply, Sean. I actually posted graphics of that sledge-hammer in an earlier post:

12v:
http://www.sto-p.com/pfp/loaddump.gif

24v (& 12V):
http://bit.ly/2G8T5Om

If anyone else has thoughts on the 24V schematic I've been posting with regard to the TVS and Load Dump suppression, I'm all ears:

https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/2B1T2F322u2i2L280a1U/24Vin_VehiclePowerSupply_12Vout-1A_v1.5.pdf

Thanks,

James Wages



2018/02/15 2:00 AM, Sean Breheny <***@cornell.edu>:

I am less familiar with load dump but I would guess it would typically have
a rise time of about 1us, fall time of about 10ms, current about 10 to 1000
amps, and a total energy of about 10 Joules, maybe more. In other words, a
sledgehammer compared to ESD (which is more like a small rock thrown very
fast)
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Richard Prosser
2018-02-15 00:35:45 UTC
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With a rise time in the mS area, would a series LDO (pre-)regulator set to
15V or whatever help? It would need to be fast-ish acting and capable of
withstanding the 100V load dump voltage but otherwise not very
sophisticated. Output load regulation etc. wouldn't need to be that good.
RP
Post by James Wages
I appreciate your reply, Sean. I actually posted graphics of that
http://www.sto-p.com/pfp/loaddump.gif
http://bit.ly/2G8T5Om
If anyone else has thoughts on the 24V schematic I've been posting with
https://d2ffutrenqvap3.cloudfront.net/items/2B1T2F322u2i2L280a1U/24Vin_
VehiclePowerSupply_12Vout-1A_v1.5.pdf
Thanks,
James Wages
I am less familiar with load dump but I would guess it would typically have
a rise time of about 1us, fall time of about 10ms, current about 10 to 1000
amps, and a total energy of about 10 Joules, maybe more. In other words, a
sledgehammer compared to ESD (which is more like a small rock thrown very
fast)
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View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
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