Discussion:
[TECH] Proton battery protoype
CDB
2018-03-09 07:23:06 UTC
Permalink
According to The Guardian RMIT in Melbourne have successfully managed
to make a small scale proton battery.

Sadly actual details such as capacity etc are missing from the article.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/09/look-no-lithium-first-rechargeable-proton-battery-created

Colin

--

***@btech-online.co.uk

Web presence: www.btech-online.co.uk

Hosted by: www.justhost.com.au

This email is to be considered private if addressed to a named
individual or Personnel Department, and public if addressed to a blog,
forum or news article.



__________________________________
Sent from eM Client | www.emclient.com <http://www.emclient.com/get>
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
smplx
2018-03-10 00:57:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by CDB
According to The Guardian RMIT in Melbourne have successfully managed
to make a small scale proton battery.
Sadly actual details such as capacity etc are missing from the article.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/09/look-no-lithium-first-rechargeable-proton-battery-created
Colin
https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2018/mar/all-power-to-the-proton
When I first read the guardian article refered to by Colin (thanks Colin)
I thought "rechargeable fuel cell?".

Reading the follow up I'm thinking "I guess proton battery sounds sexier
than rechargeable fuel cell".

I've got some rechargeable Nickel proton cells I'm willing to sell if
anyone wants any :-)

The thing I find most intriguing about this new proton battery is that it
consumes oxygen from the air and therefor must produce oxygen when
recharging. I'm curious how much oxygen would be generated by a car park
full of recharging cars and whether this would pose a seriuos fire risk.

Regards
Sergio Masci
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
RussellMc
2018-03-10 11:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by smplx
The thing I find most intriguing about this new proton battery is that it
consumes oxygen from the air and therefor must produce oxygen when
recharging. I'm curious how much oxygen would be generated by a car park
full of recharging cars and whether this would pose a seriuos fire risk.
​Let's have a REALLY rough attempt.
Hydrogen gives about 40 kWh/kg when combusted.
1 kWh delivered is say about 40 Ah x 25V.

Assume that charging energy is the same as the max liberated energy for the
complete oxidation of the Hydrogen.
In practice I'd assume that the delivered energy would be substantially
lower and the charge energy somewhat higher.

1 kWh = 1000 grams/40 kWh =


H2O = 1 mol H2 and1/2 mol O2.
Mol H2 = 2grams.
Mol O2 = 32 grams.
So mass 2:H2 = 0.5 x 32/2 = 8 x O2 mass as H2.

So 25g H2 yields 200 g O2.
Volume of O2/kWh = 22.4l x 200/32 = 140 l

Initially charge rates may be at low C rates. Modern auto LiIon can charge
at 10C say.
If car has 20 Ah of batteries charging at 1C rate releases 20 x 140l = 2800
l of O2/hour.
At 10C ... :-).

O2 %age in air about 20%.
Doubling O2 % in air requires addition of about 33% O2 by vol.

So to double O2% to 40% means 2800l can "seed" 1/.33 x 2800 = 8500l of
air.

So charging a 20 Ah battery at C rate doubles the Oxygen % in a badly
ventillated 8500l space.

8500l = 8.5 m^3
Or about say 2m^3.
This is in the order of the volume occupied by the car.

Assuming no errors above (unlikely) it looks likely that O2 % rise would be
noticeable but modest ventoillation would be enough.

An E&OE check may find and order of magnitude error there somewhere :-)


Russell
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
htt
p***@roadrunner.com
2018-03-12 14:22:32 UTC
Permalink
The thing I find most intriguing about this new proton battery is that it >consumes oxygen from the air and therefor must produce oxygen when >recharging. I'm curious how much oxygen would be generated by a car park >full of recharging cars and whether this would pose a seriuos fire risk.
My hearing aids use zinc-air batteries which have been around for a long time and have, as I understand it, excellent energy density (a tiny cell will power my aids for about 40 hours). These also depend on the O2 in the air, although they are not rechargeable. Of course, it would take quite a few of them to power a car. 😊

- - Bob Ammerman
RAm Systems

-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of smplx
Sent: Friday, March 9, 2018 7:58 PM
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [TECH] Proton battery protoype
Post by CDB
According to The Guardian RMIT in Melbourne have successfully
managed to make a small scale proton battery.
Sadly actual details such as capacity etc are missing from the article.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/mar/09/look-no-lithium-fi
rst-rechargeable-proton-battery-created
Colin
https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2018/mar/all-power-to-the-proton
When I first read the guardian article refered to by Colin (thanks Colin) I thought "rechargeable fuel cell?".

Reading the follow up I'm thinking "I guess proton battery sounds sexier than rechargeable fuel cell".

I've got some rechargeable Nickel proton cells I'm willing to sell if anyone wants any :-)

The thing I find most intriguing about this new proton battery is that it consumes oxygen from the air and therefor must produce oxygen when recharging. I'm curious how much oxygen would be generated by a car park full of recharging cars and whether this would pose a seriuos fire risk.
Regards
Sergio Masci
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive View/change your membership options at http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http:/
Chris Roper
2018-03-12 14:50:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@roadrunner.com
Of course, it would take quite a few of them to power a car. 😊
And you still wouldn't hear it coming :>)
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http:
James Cameron
2018-03-12 15:30:20 UTC
Permalink
Some more details from the team
http://theconversation.com/how-protons-can-power-our-future-energy-needs-93124
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
Brooke Clarke
2018-03-12 18:01:09 UTC
Permalink
Hi:

Here's the scientific paper:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319918302714
"Essentially a proton battery is a reversible PEM fuel cell with an integrated solid-state electrode for storing
hydrogen in atomic form, rather than as molecular gaseous hydrogen in an external cylinder. It is thus a hybrid between
a hydrogen-fuel-cell and battery-based system, combining advantages of both system types. In principle a proton battery
can have a roundtrip energy efficiency comparable to a lithium ion battery."

Re: [TECH] Proton battery protoype
--
Have Fun,

Brooke Clarke
http://www.PRC68.com
http://www.end2partygovernment.com/2012Issues.html

-------- Original Message --------
Post by p***@roadrunner.com
Re: [TECH] Proton battery protoype
--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership options at
http://mailman.mit.edu/mailman/listinfo/piclist
RussellMc
2018-03-12 23:32:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Brooke Clarke
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319918302714
​That didn't work for me, strangely.
This may (or may not):

<​https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319918302714​>
Post by Brooke Clarke
"Essentially a proton battery is a reversible PEM fuel cell with an
integrated solid-state electrode for storing
hydrogen in atomic form, rather than as molecular gaseous hydrogen in an
external cylinder. It is thus a hybrid between
a hydrogen-fuel-cell and battery-based system, combining advantages of
both system types. In principle a proton battery
can have a roundtrip energy efficiency comparable to a lithium ion battery."
​ Technical feasibility of a proton battery with an activated carbon
electrode

They also say:

The experimental results reported here show that a small proton battery
(active area 5.5 cm2) with a porous activated carbon electrode made from
phenolic resin and 10 wt% PTFE binder was able to store in electrolysis
(charge) mode very nearly 1 wt% hydrogen, and release on discharge 0.8 wt%
in fuel cell (electricity supply) mode. A significant design innovation is
the use of a small volume of liquid acid within the porous electrode to
conduct protons (as hydronium) to and from the nafion membrane of the
reversible cell. Hydrogen gas evolution during charging of the activated
carbon electrode was found to be very low until a voltage of around 1.8 V
was reached. Future work is being directed towards increasing current
densities during charging and discharging, multiple cycle testing, and
gaining an improved understanding of the reactions between hydronium and
carbon surfaces.

They do not mention increasing energy density / Hydrogen % mass .
Hmmm ... -scribbles ...
Using ~~ 40 kWh/kg
1kg x 1% x 40 kWh = 400 Wh/kg

That's ~~ equivalent to LiIon technologies!

IF they can get that energy density without extremely high pressures and
temperatures and the Hydrogen diffusion & metal embrittlement when stored
in pressure vessels, then they are indeed winning.

*Seems very apposite:*

*Progress in aqueous rechargeable batteries *
Reviewa article - full free. (CC BY-NC-ND)

https://ac.els-cdn.com/S2468025717301474/1-s2.0-S2468025717301474-main.pdf?_tid=6b64370f-ad96-4530-bcca-700ec6eb868c&acdnat=1520897491_d82607875a18f119e0c7ac980cecd72b

Over the past decades, a series of aqueous rechargeable batteries (ARBs)
were explored, investigated and demonstrated. Among them, aqueous
rechargeable alkali-metal ion (Liþ, Naþ, Kþ) batteries, aqueous
rechargeable-metal ion (Zn2þ, Mg2þ, Ca2þ, Al3þ) batteries and aqueous
rechargeable hybrid batteries are standing out due to peculiar properties.
In this review, we focus on the fundamental basics of these batteries, and
discuss the scientific and/or technological achievements and challenges. By
critically reviewing state-of-the-art technologies and the most promising
results so far, we aim to analyze the benefits of ARBs and the critical
issues to be addressed, and to promote better development of ARBs. © 2017,
Institute of Process Engineering, Chinese Academy of Sciences. Publishing
services by Elsevier B.V. on behalf of KeAi Communications Co., Ltd. This
is an open access article under the CC BY-NC-ND license (
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/4.0/).

___________________

*​​Chitosan–ammonium acetate–ethylene carbonate membrane for proton
batteries*

2014
Free open access - full paper -
​ ​
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S187853521400077X/pdfft?md5=cb7912ead428b2e12b0feba2a9c9b3d7&pid=1-s2.0-S187853521400077X-main.pdf


*​​Graphene enhances the proton selectivity of porous membrane in vanadium
flow batteries* ​
2016
Try everything :-)
​ ​
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0264127516313107


​Twas brilling and the slithey ...


*​​A morphology strategy to disentangle conductivity–selectivity dilemma in
proton exchange membranes for vanadium flow batteries*
​ ​
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0957582017304172








​Russell

--
http://www.piclist.com/techref/piclist PIC/SX FAQ & list archive
View/change your membership opti
Loading...