Discussion:
[OT] a ten second evac warning for venting lithium batteries
James Cameron
2018-08-02 05:39:13 UTC
Permalink
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-02/electric-scooter-explodes-while-charging-in-china/10066416

Battery begins to vent. Operator disconnects charger. Venting
increases by orders of magnitude. Operator evacuates. Vented gas
ignites.

What has interested me is;

- only ten seconds before "flames",

- did the venting increase because of charger being turned off?
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Ryan O'Connor
2018-08-02 06:01:43 UTC
Permalink
I can't think of any explainable reason why the venting would increase when
the charger was pulled out (the chinese report had a second camera angle
showing he definitely pulled the plug out. it also has sound, an audible
pop is heard first when the dog jumps). However it is surprising how
quickly it escalated considering it was unplugged.

Ryan
Post by James Cameron
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-02/electric-scooter-explodes-while-charging-in-china/10066416
Battery begins to vent. Operator disconnects charger. Venting
increases by orders of magnitude. Operator evacuates. Vented gas
ignites.
What has interested me is;
- only ten seconds before "flames",
- did the venting increase because of charger being turned off?
--
James Cameron
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Richard Pope
2018-08-02 06:15:55 UTC
Permalink
James, Ryan,
What has happened is a cascade failure. Remember that a battery is
made of several cells. When one of these cells failed it overheated the
cells around it. This caused these cells to fail and this overheated
surrounding cells and so forth. The lithium in the batteries would react
in a violent manner to the oxygen in the air when the cells were
breached. Once this type of failure starts there is no way to stop it.
This is what happen to a 777 Dreamliner a few years ago. It brought the
plane down. Since then Boeing has changed the design of the battery and
installed it in a stronger containment system that has an external vent
system.
GOD Bless,
rich!
Post by Ryan O'Connor
I can't think of any explainable reason why the venting would increase when
the charger was pulled out (the chinese report had a second camera angle
showing he definitely pulled the plug out. it also has sound, an audible
pop is heard first when the dog jumps). However it is surprising how
quickly it escalated considering it was unplugged.
Ryan
Post by James Cameron
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-02/electric-scooter-explodes-while-charging-in-china/10066416
Battery begins to vent. Operator disconnects charger. Venting
increases by orders of magnitude. Operator evacuates. Vented gas
ignites.
What has interested me is;
- only ten seconds before "flames",
- did the venting increase because of charger being turned off?
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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Forrest Christian (List Account)
2018-08-02 11:53:19 UTC
Permalink
I'm not aware of a recent crash caused by lithium batteries.... The only
one I'm aware of is a UPS 747 which had a pallet of them in the cargo hold
back in 2010. Maybe this was what you were thinking of. I believe this
event is why you can't ship most lithium batteries by air.

There have been a couple of recent crashes where they were suspected, but
neither were conclusive. One being mh370, the other being ms304.

And yes, Boeing seems to be continuing to have lithium battery
failures/fires in the 787, but so far none has caused a hull loss that I'm
aware of.
Post by Richard Pope
James, Ryan,
What has happened is a cascade failure. Remember that a battery is
made of several cells. When one of these cells failed it overheated the
cells around it. This caused these cells to fail and this overheated
surrounding cells and so forth. The lithium in the batteries would react
in a violent manner to the oxygen in the air when the cells were
breached. Once this type of failure starts there is no way to stop it.
This is what happen to a 777 Dreamliner a few years ago. It brought the
plane down. Since then Boeing has changed the design of the battery and
installed it in a stronger containment system that has an external vent
system.
GOD Bless,
rich!
Post by Ryan O'Connor
I can't think of any explainable reason why the venting would increase
when
Post by Ryan O'Connor
the charger was pulled out (the chinese report had a second camera angle
showing he definitely pulled the plug out. it also has sound, an audible
pop is heard first when the dog jumps). However it is surprising how
quickly it escalated considering it was unplugged.
Ryan
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-02/electric-scooter-explodes-while-charging-in-china/10066416
Post by Ryan O'Connor
Post by James Cameron
Battery begins to vent. Operator disconnects charger. Venting
increases by orders of magnitude. Operator evacuates. Vented gas
ignites.
What has interested me is;
- only ten seconds before "flames",
- did the venting increase because of charger being turned off?
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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AB Pearce - UKRI STFC
2018-08-02 12:42:25 UTC
Permalink
I believe the one Richard was mentioning was at an airport in Japan where there was some battery backed equipment in a locker in the rear of the aircraft that failed. I do remember seeing photos (I think they were linked in a post from this forum) of the resulting mess. The plane was being serviced between flights when the battery failed, so there was no crash as such from it.





-----Original Message-----
From: piclist-***@mit.edu <piclist-***@mit.edu> On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: 02 August 2018 12:53
To: Microcontroller discussion list - Public. <***@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] a ten second evac warning for venting lithium batteries

I'm not aware of a recent crash caused by lithium batteries.... The only one I'm aware of is a UPS 747 which had a pallet of them in the cargo hold
back in 2010. Maybe this was what you were thinking of. I believe this
event is why you can't ship most lithium batteries by air.

There have been a couple of recent crashes where they were suspected, but
neither were conclusive. One being mh370, the other being ms304.

And yes, Boeing seems to be continuing to have lithium battery failures/fires in the 787, but so far none has caused a hull loss that I'm aware of.
Post by Richard Pope
James, Ryan,
What has happened is a cascade failure. Remember that a battery
is made of several cells. When one of these cells failed it overheated
the cells around it. This caused these cells to fail and this
overheated surrounding cells and so forth. The lithium in the
batteries would react in a violent manner to the oxygen in the air
when the cells were breached. Once this type of failure starts there is no way to stop it.
This is what happen to a 777 Dreamliner a few years ago. It brought
the plane down. Since then Boeing has changed the design of the
battery and installed it in a stronger containment system that has an
external vent system.
GOD Bless,
rich!
Post by Ryan O'Connor
I can't think of any explainable reason why the venting would increase
when
Post by Ryan O'Connor
the charger was pulled out (the chinese report had a second camera
angle showing he definitely pulled the plug out. it also has sound,
an audible pop is heard first when the dog jumps). However it is
surprising how quickly it escalated considering it was unplugged.
Ryan
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-02/electric-scooter-explodes-while-
charging-in-china/10066416
Post by Ryan O'Connor
Post by James Cameron
Battery begins to vent. Operator disconnects charger. Venting
increases by orders of magnitude. Operator evacuates. Vented gas
ignites.
What has interested me is;
- only ten seconds before "flames",
- did the venting increase because of charger being turned off?
--
James Cameron
http://quozl.netrek.org/
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RussellMc
2018-08-02 13:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Pope
James, Ryan,
This is what happen to a 777 Dreamliner a few years ago.
A number of Dreamliner Lithium Ion batteries suffered catastrophic failures.
Post by Richard Pope
It brought the
plane down.
That terminology is excessively loose when discussing a subject of this
magnitude and importance.
No Dreamliners crashed and afair no lives were lost as a result of these
failures.
Both of those outcomes could have resulted, but neither did.

All Boeing 787 "Dreamliners" were grounded in January 2013 as a result of
these 'problems'.
Battery problems were known of for about-at-least 9 months before the
regulatory grounding.

There are a very large number of related articles and reports on-web, but
the following is a useful start:

https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=Boeing+Battery+Was+a+Concern+Before+Failure&oq=Boeing+Battery+Was+a+Concern+Before+Failure&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i60.1575j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

If you find much of what is said in this January 2013 article to be
credible then you may feel less confident in Boeing's veracity or interest
in customer safety over "bottom line" in future (regardless of how
confident you were previously).


https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/30/business/boeing-aware-of-battery-ills-before-the-fires.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimes&_r=0

I'd not want to trust my safety to a company that behaved in the manner
described.
But, I will continue to do so :-) - hopefully for many years to come.
I'd assume that the others are like unto it.

For interest - the batteries were /are? made by Yuasa.

__________________________________

Since then Boeing has changed the design of the battery and
Post by Richard Pope
installed it in a stronger containment system that has an external vent
system.
Redesigned battery - maybe.
Better containment - yes.
Venting - dunno (but Googlabet does).


Russell
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smplx
2018-08-02 21:29:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Pope
James, Ryan,
What has happened is a cascade failure. Remember that a battery is
made of several cells. When one of these cells failed it overheated the
cells around it. This caused these cells to fail and this overheated
surrounding cells and so forth. The lithium in the batteries would react
in a violent manner to the oxygen in the air when the cells were
breached. Once this type of failure starts there is no way to stop it.
Actually, if I remember correctly, it's not the oxygen in the air that's
the problem but the composition of the electrolyte. Some chemistries are
happy to oxidise the lithium without the need for atmospheric oxygen.

Regards
Sergio Masci
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Richard Prosser
2018-08-02 20:57:39 UTC
Permalink
I had a very distinct feeling of "what-if" after seeing this. The thing is
it very nearly happened to me. Yesterday.
Basic story is that the charger on our Kawasaki drill died and both
batteries were flat. So - why not charge them using a bench supply? It's
an "18V" pack which could mean either 5 or 6 18650s. There are 6 bumps on
the case so I guessed 6 cells. i.e. charge to about 24V.
Set the supply to 24V & about 1.3A.
After a while I heard sounds like the seals popping and the battery felt a
bit too warm. Disconnected & measured the voltage as12V. Not good. Opened
the pack and found that there were, in fact only 5 cells in series so the
maximum voltage should be 21V. Let things cool off & it looks like I "got
away with it", except for destroying the cells. Will look at repacking,
once we replace the charger. (O/C main cap & fuse, S/c driver transistor -
not really worth trying to fix).

RP
Post by smplx
Post by Richard Pope
James, Ryan,
What has happened is a cascade failure. Remember that a battery is
made of several cells. When one of these cells failed it overheated the
cells around it. This caused these cells to fail and this overheated
surrounding cells and so forth. The lithium in the batteries would react
in a violent manner to the oxygen in the air when the cells were
breached. Once this type of failure starts there is no way to stop it.
Actually, if I remember correctly, it's not the oxygen in the air that's
the problem but the composition of the electrolyte. Some chemistries are
happy to oxidise the lithium without the need for atmospheric oxygen.
Regards
Sergio Masci
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Sean Breheny
2018-08-04 23:38:58 UTC
Permalink
A normal lithium ion cell doesn't contain any metallic (elemental) lithium.
The chemicals are usually a lithium salt like lithium perchlorate or
lithium hexafluorophosphate dissolved in a suitable organic solvent mixture
such as ethylene carbonate and dimethyl carbonate. The electrodes are
typically lithium cobalt oxide (positive) and graphite(negative) but vary
widely. None of the above chemicals is particularly air-sensitive. The
danger comes from two things: the high energy density of the cell such that
even a tiny short circuit internal to the cell can cause extreme heating
and also the flammability of the electrolyte. The lithium compounds play
only a minor role in the combustion (they can turn the flames bright red
from the characteristic emission spectrum of Li(+) ions)

It is a very active area of research to find a suitable non-flammable
solvent for lithium ion battery electrolyte - to substitute for the organic
carbonates and other solvents used now. Unfortunately the solvent needs to
have certain properties which greatly reduce the number of suitable
solvents. Water cannot be used - not because of reaction with lithium - but
because the cell voltage is too high and it would immediately begin
breaking the water apart into hydrogen and oxygen. In fact, you absolutely
should consider using water to put out a lithium ion battery fire, as long
as there is no high voltage present (such as a line-powered battery
charger) which could cause a shock hazard to the person pouring the water.

Some of the confusion in this topic comes from the existence of lithium
primary batteries. These are non-rechargable and DO contain elemental
lithium. Examples of these are 3V button cells (like the CR-series) and
long-term memory or clock backup batteries. Some critical medical or
military equipment can contain fairly large lithium primary cells - like
some automated external defibrillators. The chemistry also varies greatly
but the traditional main example is the lithium manganese dioxide cell,
which has lithium metal as the anode, MnO2 as the cathode, and a solution
of lithium perchlorate in an organic solvent as the electrolyte. These will
react violently if the inside of the cell is exposed to water. They will
also react with oxygen in air (if the seal is broken) but much more slowly.
However, their lithium anode can certainly burn in air with a very hot
flame if it is ignited and the electrolyte is once again very flammable,
too.
Post by smplx
Post by Richard Pope
James, Ryan,
What has happened is a cascade failure. Remember that a battery is
made of several cells. When one of these cells failed it overheated the
cells around it. This caused these cells to fail and this overheated
surrounding cells and so forth. The lithium in the batteries would react
in a violent manner to the oxygen in the air when the cells were
breached. Once this type of failure starts there is no way to stop it.
Actually, if I remember correctly, it's not the oxygen in the air that's
the problem but the composition of the electrolyte. Some chemistries are
happy to oxidise the lithium without the need for atmospheric oxygen.
Regards
Sergio Masci
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RussellMc
2018-08-02 13:25:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Cameron
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-02/electric-scooter-
explodes-while-charging-in-china/10066416
Battery begins to vent. Operator disconnects charger. Venting
increases by orders of magnitude. Operator evacuates. Vented gas
ignites.
I rough count:
3 seconds from dog startle to 1st smoke.
another 3 seconds to plug pulled out.
Under 10 seconds total to "all go".

Very commendable action by the user - although arguably the BEST response
would be to evacuate the child and then return to the problem if
inclination and escalation allowed.

What has interested me is;
Post by James Cameron
- only ten seconds before "flames",
Yes. MUCH faster than most of seen (in videos only).
Some batteries have developed a hard metallic internal short. In a vehicle
like this there is liable to be 0.5 - 2 kWh capacity. Could be more.
IF say 10% of this can be liberated in 10 seconds, for 1 kWh that's
1000 Wh x 3600 s/hr x 10% /10 seconds = 36 kW for 10 seconds.
Even a small fraction of that could cause the results seen.
Post by James Cameron
- did the venting increase because of charger being turned off?
I'd not expect so.
Charging a say 1 kWh battery would use at most a 1 kW charger and I'd
expect rates more like 100 - 200 Watt max.
Whereas the energy available on a full internal battery short could be (see
above) tens of kW.
(eg say 36V battery at 1000 A ... ! :-) :-( )

The charger probably helped the battery into a fault condition but, once
started, the battery needed no help.


Russell.
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